Babylon 5 on DVD: Vote with your dollars (1 Viewer)

[TheoGB]

What's the director's cut like of TG compared to the original?

 

[nolesrule]

What's the director's cut like of TG compared to the original?

It's much tighter than the original version. The story is more cohesive and the pacing is much improved.

I was gonna ask why you've never seen it, but then I noticed you're in London.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

In the case of The Gathering the original version is the director's cut. What is on the DVD is the writer producer's cut.
I have never seen the original version of TG, but here's my understanding of the differences:
1) Prior to shooting, the PTEN network decided that they needed to squeeze in more commercial breaks. So JMS rewrote the script, cutting some material and changing it from the standard six-act structure for a 2-hour (92 minute) TV movie into nine acts - meaning there had to be some kind of "mini-climax" every few minutes to get viewers to come back after a commercial.
2) The director cut out many character moments in favor of "action", pretty camera shots and SFX - nearly 14 minutes of material shot on the soundstage was excised from the final cut. JMS disagreed with much of this, but was not experienced enough in film editing to be sure he was right, and acquiesed in the director's decisions.
3) A scene written to show the "alien sector" was staged and shot to make it look a bit like the ST pilot, "The Menagerie", with the aliens living in cage-like quarters. When it originally aired this was universally dubbed "the alien zoo sequence". JMS hated it and lobbied to cut it from the final film, but was overruled.
4) The Lyta-G'Kar conversation was written to include G'Kar using a "privacy" device to defeat eavesdroppers. As written this would have been a fairly simple effect, as shot it looked ridiculous. (Fans dubbed it, "the cone of silence.") Again, JMS wanted it cut because he thought it didn't work, but he was overruled.
5) Finally a Warner Bros. exec decided that the second-in-command, Laurel Takishima was "too harsh" He demanded that Tamlyn Tomita be brought back to "loop" all of her dialogue, making it "softer and more feminine."
6) The original version had a score by Stewart Copeland. When Copeland was not available for the series, the producers found Christopher Franke, who remained the composer for the rest of B5 and the TV movies (barring the Crusade tie-in movie, A Call to Arms which, like that series, had a more experimental score by Evan Chen.)
By most accounts the original version of the pilot was choppy and badly paced (because of the nine-act structure) had some silly moments (the "alien zoo" and the "cone of silence") and the second-in-command spoke oddly.
When TNT bought the rerun rights for the first four seasons they also decided to do two original B5 TV movies, and eventually agreed to finance a revised edition of The Gathering.
Although all the original materials were no longer available (some original negatives were water damaged, others nibbled by rats) there was enough B-roll footage and other stuff for JMS to rejigger the movie back into the intended six-act structure, partly by rearranging scenes. He was also able to cut enough "action", neat camera shots and F/X shots to restore almost all of the 14 minutes of character stuff cut from the original version, without making the film any longer. Finally he found Tamlyn Tomita's original "live" dialogue tracks and went to the expense of restoring them (and her performance) in place of the "softer", looped, dialogue. The "alien zoo" scene was cut entirely, and the Lyta-G'Kar scene trimmed and played without the "cone of silence" F/X overlay.
Since the movie was now totally recut, a new score was needed. Series composer Christopher Franke was selected to write a score in keeping with the music from the series. A number of new F/X shots were also dropped in to replace the cruder computer F/X circa 1992.
People who have seen both tell me that the revised TG is better paced, the plot is easier to follow and that it is, over-all, a better film. It still doesn't match up perfectly with the series, because many changes were made in time between the completion of the pilot and the shooting of the first episode - but short of reshooting big chunks of the film, the revised Gathering is probably as good as it is going to get, and certainly closer to what JMS had in his head when he wrote the script than the version that originally aired. (I know a number of people who saw the pilot and decided they had seen enough. They later caught some of the episodes and became hooked on the series itself. Some of them have told me they probably would have "got it" if the revised version of TG had been the pilot that aired.)
A friend of mine actually did a shot-by-shot comparison of the two versions. If anyone's interested, post something here and I'll try to dig up the URL.
Regards,
Joe

 

[nolesrule]

In the case of The Gathering the original version is the director's cut. What is on the DVD is the writer producer's cut.

Joe, you're right of course. I was thinking in terms of special edition, which was why I put "director's cut" in quotes.
You've never seen the original cut? Want to borrow my Columbia House VHS just to get a look at it? I'll ship it to you. I know you'll send it back. You won't want to keep it.

 

[TheoGB]

I couldn't remember the exact naming of the new version. Cheers.
It may actually have been broadcast on satellite/cable/digital tv over here but I don't have any of those. I have a pretty full set of B5s including the very early versions of the first three tapes with the stupid G'Kar's head cover art. They must be so ragged but I've not played them in ages.
It really surprised me when the new version of The Gathering came out. When the series was running I seem to remember the Lurker's Guide bit on The Gathering had quotes to the effect that loads of people wondered whether a 'better' version of the pilot would be made. I seem to remember JMS being quoted as 'liking the current version'.
I guess I was either mistaken or he was attempting not to piss his current backers off.
Personally I think it's a real shame that he's both very brilliant but very un-bending. The later series really don't have the grace of the first three in terms of writing, and it seemed at the time that his pride was one of the reasons we didn't get Claudia in Season 5. Obviously the whole 'no series 5' fiasco didn't help either.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

What he said about The Gathering prior to TNT providing the financing for the re-edit is that he was aware of its flaws, but proud of the work, and that it did its job as a pilot (establishing the universe and getting the show sold.) He also mentioned that in a perfect world he'd like to re-cut it, but that there was zero chance of that happening since Warner Bros. wasn't going to pay for it, and neither was anybody else. When TNT made the offer though, he jumped on it.

...and it seemed at the time that his pride was one of the reasons we didn't get Claudia in Season 5.

JMS's pride had nothing to do with Claudia's not returning. As she finally said in a magazine interview almost a year later (after releasing several contradictory statements at the time of her departure) she quit (her word) the show because she didn't think her character was being used enough, and because she couldn't get the contract terms she wanted. But the underuse of her character was the main reason.
She must not have been paying attention. Year five would have seen Ivanova in command of the station during the Telepath Crisis, and would inevitably dealt with her latent telepathy, a thread which had been quietly developed ever since S1. Ivanova would have been front-and-center for much of the first half of the season.
JMS had nothing to do with any of this, since her contract was with Warner Bros. not with him. She was the only actor who did not sign an extention of her original contract while WB and TNT were negotiating for S5, and therefore was technically no longer an employee (and therefore could not be "fired" as she originally claimed.) The studio tried to sign her to a new contract, made an offer and set a deadline, and neither she nor her agent responded in time. The offer was therefore withdrawn. JMS had no say in any of this. After that he had to go back and rewrite the first three or four shows of the first season, reassign plot elements to characters like Lyta and Lochley, and generally try to salvage a season plan that was badly distorted by the loss of Ivanova. Once the show was in production it was too late to re-plot everything again, even if Claudia had been interested in returning, so that was never an option.
Both Claudia and JMS have said that they would be willing to discuss Ivanova's return in any future B5 project where the character would be important in the story, and it is likely that she'll at least be contacted in the event the long-hoped-for feature film is ever made. (The pending Rangers TV movie and possible series, strong B5 books sales and a successful DVD release may revive Warner Bros. interest in the project. When Crusade was gearing WB was very hot on the idea of a B5 feature film, and went so far as to commission a treatment for a screenplay. JMS has since stated that the storyline in the treatment deals with the Vorlons and the Telepath Crisis, and is designed to get as many of the regular cast and key guest stars - like Walter Koenig as Bester - involved as possible. Hard to see how they could do that story without Capt. Ivanova, Latent Telepath. )
Regards,
Joe

 

[Bill Buklis]

JMS has since stated that the storyline ... is designed to get as many of the regular cast and key guest stars - like Walter Koenig as Bester - involved as possible

If this is to be a feature film, that might not be a good thing. Since you only have two hours to work with, it usually weakens the story with too many characters involved. But, I'd definitely like to find out what happens to Lyta and G'Kar.

 

[Rob T]

I called the local Future Shop and they have it for $19.99 so I should have it by tomorrow night.

 

[Brian Duke]

I put my vote in. Too bad it's 4:3 as someone noted in this thread. I sure hope if they release the rest they are 16:9 anamorphic. Anyone know any way we can pressure someone for 16:9 anamorphic?

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Bill:

Quote:

I didn't think anything is ever "mastered from film". The film is transferred to video (digital video in this case) and then mastered from that onto DVD. In any event, both of these would have come originally from film sources except for the CGI, which would have been transferred direct from the original data files. I don't think the CGI was ever output to film. The shimmering is probably due to the fact that the CGI was relatively low-res, and was produced at 4:3 (but designed to be trimmed to 16:9 for HDTV.)
JMS made reference to Warner Bros. needing to take the film out of the vaults and letting it defrost before they could do corrected widescreen transfers for the Sci-Fi Channel, so at least the live action stuff started out on film. (After they discovered the shocking condition the original negative of The Gathering was in when they did the 1998 re-edit, JMS & Co. convinced Warner Bros. to store the rest of the B5 materials properly.)
Regards,
Joe

 

[Dustin D]

We would all like to see anamorphic widescreen on B5, but The Gathering was never meant to be seen that way. The framing of the shots in it are off, since it's meant to be 4:3. Therefore, the version of TG we are getting is appropriate. Don't be disappointed it's 4:3.
Here's to B5 season sets, in 16:9!
Dustin

 

[TheoGB]

JMS's pride had nothing to do with Claudia's not returning. As she finally said in a magazine interview almost a year later (after releasing several contradictory statements at the time of her departure) she quit (her word) the show because she didn't think her character was being used enough, and because she couldn't get the contract terms she wanted. But the underuse of her character was the main reason.

Fair enough. Like I said, at the time (before S5) I read an SFX interview which basically stated that Claudia had not been given the 4 episodes off she needed and that she'd been interested in back tracking or at least doing some guest appearences within the series but JMS hadn't got back to her.

Considering all I'd heard and have heard since about JMS, he does appear to be a very unbending type - a man who does not easily say 'I was wrong/sorry/etc.' I guess whatever the reason, Season 5 just felt cold and empty without that character anchoring the show.

I also find the statement about non-use of character interesting. This was exactly the same thing stated by the actress playing Talia, wasn't it? It seems odd Claudia would say that when she would have known that her character was 'expendable' if she didn't tow the line by that point. makes the whole thing seem even more dubious. Hmm.

Oh well, cheers, anyhow.

 

[Bill Buklis]

The Teep War doesn't start until after they return from exile...

You're right. I was referring more to Lyta's involvement in the Teep War. I was thinking that G'Kar might have a greater influence because of his time with Lyta. But, come to think of it, they probably separated before Lyta gets fully involved. Whether or not G'Kar is at all involved in the war or not, I know he will survive the era eventually leading to...

The Teep War should be the story of Lyta and Bester (and perhaps Ivanova and Garibaldi) whereas the Centauri Trilogy is the story of Londo, Vir, and G'Kar.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Quote:

I don't think G'Kar had much influence over Lyta, despite their time together. They depart in late 2262 for what is supposed to be a two-year self-imposed exile. Lyta also gives Garibaldi two years to put together a fighting force that she can use against Psi Corps. We know from what JMS has said that the Telepath War or Telepath Crisis breaks out in 2264 and ends in 2265. So it sounds like Lyta takes command of her forces almost as soon as she returns, and immediately opens an offensive against Psi Corps. (There was a short-story published in B5 Magazine that takes place in the middle of the war, but during a lull in the fighting. At that point things are not going well for Lyta's forces, and she sets out with Garibaldi to find a secret Psi Corps base far outside Earth-controlled space.)
I suppose we'll hear a little bit about Lyta from G'Kar in the upcoming Rangers movie, but, knowing JMS, I'm sure this will raise more questions than it answers.
Regards,
Joe

 

[Rob T]

I finally got mine today from The Future Shop.

 

[TheoGB]

Hello. I felt it was important to resurrect this thread in order to say: GREEN!

 

[CaptDS9E]

I got this dvd today. I got into B5 at the start of the

year, and the only thing I didnt see what In The Beginning. Good film. Just make sure you dont watch it till after you see the series or you spoil a lot

capt

 

[Craig P]

PURPLE!!

My copy will be arriving Real Soon Now (tm).

 

[Philip Verdieck]

My copy arrived yesterday!

 

[TheoGB]

GREEN!

This could run and run.
I'm really in a quandry here. I sounds like the Region 4 is still NTSC (as WB have been doing recently) or a downconversion. So do I wait to see if the R2 is proper PAL or do I buy the U.S. version... Hmm.
If it was only the original version of The Gathering I could just make do with my VHS copies.