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B&W vs Klipsch for rock music and movies (1 Viewer)

Larry B

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Nice to know that speaker quality is judged by how loudly it will play. Logically then, I guess amps should be judged by their wattage. (Alas, pity the poor SETS:frowning: ).
Larry
 

rodneyH

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Justin and Larry, I guess I was the stupid one who even participated in the thread in the 1st place, I knew that Klipsch would definatly have the edge (by a long shot) in the department of pure volume. I didn't realize that was the only criteria,

I hope I didn't deceive anybody with my opinions.

So to answer the original Question. YES-Klipsch should be your way to go!!!!
 

Saurav

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Guys,
You do realize that the ability to hit 120dB without distortion means that even when playing at 85-90dB average levels, the speaker will handle the dynamic peaks in the music without compression or distortion. In comparision, a speaker that can only go up to say 100dB would not be able to reproduce music accurately at 90dB average levels.
It's naive to think that a speaker's max SPL ability only comes into the picture when you're playing music at ear-bleeding levels. That's like saying a car with lots of torque/horsepower is better only if you drive above 100mph. That's nonsense, and anyone who drives a "driver's car" (and Larry, I believe you fall into that category) knows that.
Logically then, I guess amps should be judged by their wattage.
Only if you force them to drive inefficienct speakers :)
Seriously, aren't amps judged by wattage these days? Aren't speakers judged by how low and high they go? Think about it: if you had to pick between a speaker that does 30Hz - 11KHz realy well, vs. another that does 20Hz - 20KHz pretty well, which would you pick? There's not much music below 30Hz and above 9KHz. Even knowing that, I would be very uncomfortable sacrificing the frequency extremes to get better performance where it matters more. It's just been drilled into me, 20-20K, 20-20K.
It comes back to what you mean when you talk about accuracy. For me, to be accurate is to sound realistic, and volume/SPL is definitely a part of that. Not necessarily more important than tonal/timbral accuracy, but certainly not irrelevant either. In other words, if you have a pair of speakers that makes a piccolo sound like a piccolo, but the orchestra sounds like it's being played by a bunch of Barbie dolls on a 6" high stage, that's not accurate. If a drum set sounds like a toy, that's not accurate, no matter how flat the frequency response is.
Of course, I'm exaggerating, but I hope you get the point I'm trying to make :)
 

rodneyH

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Saurav, I guess all those guys who own some of the JMlab, Wilson, Revels, B&W 800 sig, CAT, etc, etc.... and pay over $20k for their speakers (that happen to require a lot of power to sound good) really have speakers that don't sound good even at low volumes based on your theory. And really should just be running a 120W yamaha receiver instead of a $30,000 Levinson amp, $10,000 TagMc pre-amp, should be running the other speakers in debate.... After all, the "more efficient speakers" will sound less compressed, etc...

When you talk about "accuracY", THAT is why I am prett sure that B&Ws are a good speaker. Over 80% of the world wide jazz and classical recording studios use B&W as their reference speakers. These are the most demanding and critical people when it comes to music reproduction.


We don't see eye to eye, on this, that is the fact, we will just agree to disagree. we should leave it at that.
 

Saurav

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We don't see eye to eye, on this, that is the fact, we will just agree to disagree. we should leave it at that.
Agreed. Especially if your posts get any more insulting, and then I'll have no interest in continuing this conversation either. :)
 

rodneyH

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Saurav, I wasn't insulting you, and didn't intend to do so (if you took it that way, I apologize). What I am saying is that we will just disagree on this one and go on our marry way, happy with what we have. I do happen to believe that you do somewhat get what you pay for (there are exeptions, and if you are VERY good at DIY projects, perhaps that is an exeption), but in general the more you pay the better system you get (this is not an absolute though, since sound can be so subjective). Heck, I even have a friend who drives a Ferrari 360, and he has a Bose system, so you get my point.

PEACE!!!!
 

Larry B

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Wow, this got a lot more heated up than I expected.

Saurav, your arguments in favor of efficient speaker's ability to handle dynamics seems logical, though I don't know enough electronics/physics to know if that's all there is to it.

OTOH, I have consistently been un-impressed with horn speakers. Perhaps their dynamics are the best of any speaker, but I just don't like the way they sound. Specifically, they never seem to make musical instruments sound life-like, or full-bodied.

I am unable to say which elements of sound reproduction I most favor (tonal accuracy, soundstaging, etc.) but I can tell you that that whatever they are, horns lack them.

Larry

P.S. I will add that Thiel speakers are quite inefficient but are, IMO, more life-like and more sophisticated than the vast majority of speakers I've heard.
 

Larry B

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John:
I guess you've missed all my gushings about the Amati Homage. :)
Other speakers I find quite impressive are the Lumen Whites, Kharmas, Revels, Merlins and Vandersteens. And just this week I bought a pair of Von Schweikerts. (I've reluctantly put the Thiels up for sale.)
Larry
 

Saurav

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P.S. I will add that Thiel speakers are quite inefficient but are, IMO, more life-like and more sophisticated than the vast majority of speakers I've heard.
Do your musical tastes push your speakers to their dynamic limits? I think that plays in to a large extent too. You can design a speaker that'll excel at soft/acoustic music and faiol miserably with live rock, and vice versa. Maybe your musical tastes don't require that much dynamic ability from a speaker to sound real, which is why you prefer designs which sacrifice dynamics in order to get greater accuracy in other areas.
 

Matt_Briol

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Silly me, I thought we were talking about the quality of sound, not the volume. In that case, the Klipschorn will indeed go louder than B&W, so you can hit 150db on whichever rock ballad you choose to go deaf by.
That wasnt what I said. Next time at least quote the entire sentance! I said "BTW by "beat the crap out of" I meant louder and better sounding. I prefer the Klipsch sound over most other speakers but not everyone does. Im sure some people would perfer the B&W over the Klipschorn but I bet the majority would pick the Klipschorn. And since we are talking about rock and roll here like Saurav said, the Klipschorn has a higher maximum SPL." In my opinion they are better sounding.
 

rodneyH

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Saurav, good point about the DIY stuff (I have built some subs in the past). As far as price goes, I don't pay retail for my speakers (in reality,I don't even pay close to retail, I have freinds in the business that treat me very well).

Peace.
 

Larry B

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Saurav:

I don't know about $20K, but say in the $2K-$5K region, you can certainly build your own speakers that would be much better than anything you could buy from a store.
Maybe. If you assume that all the complex design of cabinet shape and resonances, and matching cross-overs with tweeters, and hand-crafted tweeters, are all for naught.

Larry
 

Larry B

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Saurav:

Do your musical tastes push your speakers to their dynamic limits? I think that plays in to a large extent too. You can design a speaker that'll excel at soft/acoustic music and faiol miserably with live rock, and vice versa. Maybe your musical tastes don't require that much dynamic ability from a speaker to sound real, which is why you prefer designs which sacrifice dynamics in order to get greater accuracy in other areas.
Could be. Or maybe we just like different sounds. Or both.

LB
 

Saurav

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Maybe. If you assume that all the complex design of cabinet shape and resonances, and matching cross-overs with tweeters, and hand-crafted tweeters, are all for naught.
I think you're getting it all wrong. Nowhere did I say anyone should try to design their own speaker. That is foolish, it'll take years to approach the skill of a master designer, and in most cases you never will. OK, it's not foolish, but that's almost purely a learning/fun excercise, the average person won't get great sound out of that approach for a long time.

AFAIK, only a handful of people actually try designing their own speakers. Most use other peoples' designs, and in most cases these designers are really good at what they do. So, they've already done the work of picking drivers, working on the crossover, cabinet, etc. You, as a DIY'er, start out wiith a list of components to buy, and CAD plans for the cabinet construction. If you're like me, you find a skilled woodworker to build the cabinets for you. Then, all that's left is to buy the drivers and crossover components, and assemble the speaker by following instructions.

The better DIY kits use very high quality drivers and components. I've seen speaker kits that cost a few thousand dollars, where the drivers are a few hundred, the caps/inductors are of top quality, internal wiring is high-purity copper or silver, and so on. Compare that with what you'd get in a commercial offering in the same price range.
 

Michael R Price

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I am very interested in this discussion and apologize for coming into it with a bit of a 'hot' opinion. Like Saurav, 90% of my posts are theoretical. I have relatively few listening experiences (which I would love to expand on) and comment on what I know about the systems we're discussing. I'll start my comments based on the initial question of the post: What are the differences between B&W (typical high-end dynamic driver) and Klipsch (partially or fully horn loaded) speakers?

It is clear that they use completely different design philosophies. While both speakers are designed to be very accurate in terms of frequency response for example, Klipsch uses horns to increase efficiency and lower distortion. However, horns and the dynamic drivers needed to match them cost money. B&W instead spends the money presumably on better cabinetry and dynamic drivers. For any given price point, it is obvious that the Klipsch will have better dynamics and less distortion (due to horns) and the B&W will have a smoother, more refined sound (and more accurate, not considering dynamics).

As Larry says, your decision between these speakers depends completely on your musical tastes. If you listen to quieter music or movies with less dynamic requirements, you will likely prefer the B&Ws because when not considering dynamics, they probably sound better for a given price point. I do see the possibility that the Klipsches would have a clearer sound with lower distortion and allow purchase of a less powerful but better sounding amplifier even for low levels. (Saurav makes a good point though about low volume listening still being helped by the dynamics of a horn. I haven't really listened to a good horn at low volume though so I can't comment.) Movies and loud music listeners will definitely appreciate the lower distortion and better dynamics of the horns with less regard to absolute accuracy (for a given price point). How much accuracy, smoothness and detail you are willing to sacrifice to get better dynamics and distortion is a matter of opinion and taste.

Me personally? I have conventional speakers (Kit281s) and wish I had horns. In fact, my own speakers sacrifice a bit of accuracy (using $20 silk dome tweeters and cheap crossover components, for example) for dynamics (a pair of serious 8" woofers). In this regard I am pretty much like Saurav, except I do like the occasional loud music (my taste includes mainly rock but lots of other stuff including some classical as well). I appreciate dynamics and am willing to sacrifice some accuracy to get it, hence I recommend the Klipsches. Your mileage may vary.

With regard to DIY, I believe that at any given price point, DIY will blow the doors (drivers?) off of any commercially built speaker. Larry commented about how commercial speakers have an advantage in their excellent design of cabinets and crossovers, etc. This is true, but DIY still wins because a DIYer could instead just use better quality (significantly better quality) drivers and other components to get to the same price point. Not to mention using advanced speaker designs by professionals, some of which mimic much more expensive commercial speakers. The only added cost in DIY is your labor and to most of us, that's not a cost but a benefit.
 

Larry B

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Saurav:

here I go, making assumptions about your musical tastes. My apologies.
There's nothing to apologize for. You merely speculated, and your speculations were reasonably accurate.

Over the years my listening levels have decreased for two reasons: (1) I live in a condominium and (2) my ears have become increasingly sensitive to loud noises. So indeed, the ability of a speaker to rapidly ramp up volume is almost certainly less important to me than it is to some others.

However, concomitant with my lower-volume listening has come an increasing appreciation of the nuances of music, and of the "body-ness" of musical instruments, especially those of the acoustic variety (including human voice). My choice of components reflects this.

Larry
 

Larry B

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Saurav and others:

Wouldn't a ribbon or electrostat be the best at dynamics, due to it's negligible mass?

Larry
 

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