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B&W vs Klipsch for rock music and movies (1 Viewer)

rodneyH

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May 22, 2001
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did "beat the crap put of" mean pure volume, or quality of sound???? Just wondering.

btw, he also said "any B&W", does that include to original nautilus snail design as well as the new 800 signiture series???? (although I think that B&Ws at far lower price ranges beat them in sound quality)

btw, 803s are only $5000, and 804s are $3500, with the same mid and tweet and only 1" smaller bass drivers and a smaller enclosure (many B&W fans even feel that the 804 sounds better than the 803)
 

Jeremy Hegna

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Nov 28, 2000
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Saurav,
I have a pair of RB-3s in my bedroom powered by a Denon bookshelf system...a pair of RF-5s in my office powered by a Denon 3300, a KSW-15 sub, and a Promedia 4.1 computer speaker set. I have some experience with Klipsch in the mass market realm as well as limited experience with some of the Heritage line. I will never argue with you on the sound of horn technology...as I've told you before, the best system I have ever heard was an Avanteguarde Trio/BAT tube based system.
However, Avanteguarde and some of the VERY high end horn manufacturers are MUCH more refined than Klipsch. If we are talking about the Klipsch horn technology vs. the Nautilus technology of the B&W...certainly the former will not "kick the crap" out of the latter. I have no experience with the Klipschorn speaker though. This example may use a better technology than the mass produced Klipsch product than I am familiar with. I guess I assumed he was talking about the "treble" section of the speaker, not a specific speaker....since that is the direction that this thread has been going.
I am a fan of both speakers...they are my two favorites of the ones I can afford. Down the road, if I win the lottery, I am sure I could get ROCK to sound pretty good on some Wilsons/Levinson monos and Avanteguardes w/2 watt tube amplification:)
Jeremy
 

Saurav

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Feb 15, 2001
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Saurav, judging by your posts, I knew you hadn't (it was fairly obvious)
Well, I didn't make any attempt to hide it :)
Remainder of the post edited. I really shouldn't be in this discussion, since I haven't heard both of the speakers involved. In fact, I haven't heard either one. So, I take back everything I'd said in this post, because none of it is relevant.
 

Al B. C

Supporting Actor
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Apr 25, 2002
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644
Right now I have a pair of 23 year old Klipsch Cornwalls that I truly think is a great speaker BUT in the not too distant future I will own a set of B&W! At least the Nautilus 803's and if I can talk the boss (read wife) into it, the 801's will be mine. Oh yeah!
By the way, does anyone have any experience buying Nautilus speakers from this guy from Holland who advertises N 801's & N 802's on Audiogon at pretty decent prices?
 

Manuel Delaflor

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May 25, 2001
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657
I have been laughing by the recent "micro flame war" regarding Klipschorn's and some of the Nautilus speakers. :D :D But perhaps I should not be :D but :frowning:
First of all, we should remember that SUBJECTIVITY permeates everything we LIKE. Music reproduction need us to enjoy it in order to exist, and everyone of us is different, from our personal experience with music, speakers and the technology involved, to what we like to listen, to the functioning of our hearing mechanism...
How can we expect that what is good for us SHOULD be good for every one else?
True, every technology sound different from the rest, horn speakers, ribbon speakers, electrostat speakers and regular cone speakers do sound different.
But, to my knowledge, every one of this different technologies have made COMPROMISES in order to excel at one area and try to be "as good as the others" respecting the other areas. If they really succeed or no is a good question but I think the answer will come, someday, from science and not from subjectivity.
Anyway, what Im trying to say is that some of us, listening to whatever technology or brand, feel we have reached an audio nirvana when first presented to a technology that matches our internal sense of "yes, that is REALLY like the real thing".
Let others be happy when they say certain speakers perform this magic for them, don't bring sad comments in the tone of the old "Im right you are wrong" or worst, the implicit "Im better than you" to a forum we all enjoy.
I state that Horn Technology has done this trick for me, and I will be happy with my Horns until I hear something that makes the trick more real. And I will be happy sharing my feelings with everyone that ask.
Reading that someone feels Im stupid will not make me change my mind...
Happy Listening! :D
 

Matt_Briol

Agent
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Jun 27, 2002
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41
BTW by "beat the crap out of" I meant louder and better sounding. I perfer the Klipsch sound over most other speakers but not everyone does. Im sure some people would perfer the B&W over the Klipschorn but I bet the majority would pick the Klipschorn. And since we are talking about rock and roll here like Saurav said, the Klipschorn has a higher maximum SPL.
 

Phil Mays

Second Unit
Joined
May 20, 2002
Messages
361
Al B. C,
If you can convince the "boss" you should not hog the secret but rather pass it along to the rest of us floundering around.
I have a "boss" also, and just showing up with something dosn't work any more. Hiding it works for about 1-2 weeks...then she catches on.
;)
Phil
 

Tom Brennan

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Saurev---That B&W won't even hit that 114db because as power input gets higher driver compression sets in and a doubling of power no longer results in 3db more output. Even a high output driver such as the JBL 2226 15" pro woofer suffers from 4.5db of compression at full power, in effect just acting as a big heat-sink at full power. Of course very few manufacturers like to talk about this and the only specs I've seen that deal with it are JBL Pro ones which give compression specs at various power levels. Even the KHorn is suffering driver compression of 3-4db as can be seen if you figure it's 104db efficiency and 100 watt power handling. I doubt that B&W would even hit 110db and would most likely sound as raspy and breathless as an old man with emphysema near that level. The best B&W was the first one, the one with the electrostatic tweeter. Since then they've been rather blah, radical styling disguising ordinary sound.
 

rodneyH

Supporting Actor
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May 22, 2001
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844
Tom, judging by your web site, I will say this, we all HAVE TOTALLY DIFFERENT TASTES and you and I are polar opposites.

btw, I just sold a pair of Bozaks on ebay (do a search there for more details) and you say that they sound "pretty nice" I must say, to me, they absolutley sound LIKE crap compared to todays best speakers. I also have a pair of magnapans in storage that I had given to me, that I can't stand either (so before you say, "ya, you just like what you own, etc, etc...." That doesn't work for me. Horns Honestly hurt my ears, My dad had some old JBL horns that did it, Klipsch do it, and cerwin vega have done it. This isn't something that I am saying happens to everyone (obviously that isn't the case, otherwise, why would someone like yourself be so in love with horns-no body is twisting your wrist, just as no body is twisting my wrist to buy B&W 804s). My main concern isn't about going to 120 db (I like my hearing too much to do that), but providing good soundstage, clearity, and accuracy. To me horns sound screechy, echoy, and just very loud but enclosed (if that makes sense).

So when you talk about people on your site and call them "unmanly" "chinless" "big tone" "BIG TONE"(whatever that means)"smoking any modern day audiophile speaker at any price" "paisty waist" etc... it isn't about the testosterone at all, I guess I think of music in different ways than "manly" (although, Metallica sounds pretty "manly" on my B&Ws).

interestingly enough we have owned some very similar gear (the 2109 dvd player, your pioneer LD player (sold mine on ebay) JBL LE-14 woofers (although you say you have the 15s). All of this equipt has been sold and replaced, but it is interesting, non-the-less

btw, my dad always taught me to use "cycles" instead of Hz, but technically they are the same.

I don't know why you seem so negative about the state of audio today, I happen to believe that you can get very very good sound for a fairly good price with todays technology, and them you rip on B&W, Pro-ac, Sonus faber, maggies-Oh, well?

anyway, I guess that the more I learn about this hobby, the more I realize how subjective "good sound" is to people. (and that is what helps keep Bose in bussiness too).

PEACE
 

Saurav

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Feb 15, 2001
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anyway, I guess that the more I learn about this hobby, the more I realize how subjective "good sound" is to people.
Good point. And 100dB efficiency isn't about playing at those levels, it's about reproducing the dymanic swings in the music accurately, even if you're only playing at 80dB average levels. I've spent time in the soundstage/imaging camp, but once I heard a good dynamic speaker, I haven't turned back. Side note - I haven't heard any Klipsch speakers, so I have no opinions on them. In general though, I feel a system sounds more 'real' if it gets the dynamics right, soundstage and imaging are much lower in priority. I suspect this has something to do with all the years I spent in high school and college playing with a rock band. I've never heard any imaging in any concert I've attended, and to the best of my knowledge the imaging on most CDs today is added in the mix-down stage, it's not really a part of the music.

I've heard some high efficiency speakers (both horn and conventional) driven by high quality tube amps, and they never sounded screechy to me. In fact, I heard a pair of Vandersteens on a Parasound amp that sounded harsh and grating in comparision - go figure.

So... you're absolutely right, it comes down to what you're looking for in music. Me, I listen mostly to rock, and I'm looking for an accurate reproduction of the energy and flow in the music.

Have you listened to Meadowlark speakers? They come close to what I'm looking for, and they don't use horns. If you can, try and audition them on good tube gear, and you might see what I'm trying to say.
 

Michael R Price

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Jul 22, 2001
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Good horns aren't screechy. This is almost like the "large woofers are slow" myth.

Rock music is all about dynamics, and clarity. The horns will deliver that unlike any usual speaker such as B&Ws. Even if you're not looking for 120 dB. And especially if you are.

Also, the sound of a speaker is not what it seems like on the outside. The average hifi guy may look at the big old horns and think they must sound screechy and otherwise terrible, when the reality is different. Of course, this is why I often find myself closing my eyes listening to music.
 

rodneyH

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May 22, 2001
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Actually Mike, I don't get the idea, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE EVEN TALKING ABOUT, I NEVER judge speakers by looks (how does the look make me have a pre-concieved idea how they will sound??).

Glad to know that we have another, offering opinions of B&W without hearing them (oh, ya I guess you did see a picture, so you much know or have an idea what they sound like. Or is it the fact that you read a review, and that makes you know how they sound???-which doesn't make sense either sense they get GREAT reviews)

Since I am dealing with a situation in which people are judging B&Ws without hearing them, again, I guess I find myself in the wrong thread. Therefore, I will NO longer be participating in the discussion.

btw, large woofers are slow, a large woofer needs to move large amounts of air at certain LOW Cycles (Hs) this means the # of cycles per second. In other words a small tweeter can produce 20Khz+ because it can move faster, just as a large driver moves slower hopefully under 20Hz. (I know your arguement was more intended for the 10" or 12" VS the 15" driver size arguement, and this I agree with you, But I don't think the right term people talk about is "slow" b/c that is what you want in a woofer, but perhaps "delayed" or "sloppy" would be more appropriate-even though this arguement is still not true, generally speaking)
 

Tom Brennan

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Rodney--- Nice Post. Agreed, the whole thing is subjective. I've been in this hobby over 30 years and many of my opinions (some would say prejudices) are informed by many years of observing audiophiles obsessing over things that seem strange and downright sillyminded to me. I admit to enjoying baiting conventional audiophiles many of whom are really pretty prissy guys. I sincerely and totally disagree with the road that audio has gone down since the early 70s when people started saying "high-end" instead of "hi-fi" and started thinking of music in visual terms. The level of technical knowledge has gone down as prices have gone up and I heard no improvement in the sound of the best speakers and amps.
Now I do admit that lower quality speakers have gotten much better but I don't think any speaker made today, at any price (and I've heard most of them) is an improvement over a 45 year old Altec VOT, not in the areas of musical reproduction that are of interest to me; dynamics, clarity and low distortion. These are my opinions, of course they cannot be taken as fact, very little in audio can be.
 

rodneyH

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May 22, 2001
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Tom, well said.

I guess my point about the affordable stuff is good for the mass market. Think about people who only spend a few hundred dollars on speakers, 20-30 years ago, they would sound pretty bad, (unless you DIY or were very very careful), but now, most everything sounds at least "pretty-good" and good enough for 95% of the people out there.
 

rodneyH

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May 22, 2001
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844
btw, just got done watching/listening to my Metallica S&M dvd on my vandersteens, I still say that even they play rock pretty dang good (though not as good as my B&Ws, IMHO)
 

Michael R Price

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What I meant was that now the majority of the community judges by looks more, not Rodney in particular. Sorry about that. I edited the post above for its extremeness and I shouldn't have made the judgement I did without listening.

I think we're all agreeing and didn't realize it before.
 

Justin Doring

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Jun 9, 1999
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"BTW by 'beat the crap out of' I meant louder [. . .] the Klipschorn has a higher maximum SPL."

Silly me, I thought we were talking about the quality of sound, not the volume. In that case, the Klipschorn will indeed go louder than B&W, so you can hit 150db on whichever rock ballad you choose to go deaf by.
 

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