B&W speakers and DVD-Audio

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Jon_W, Feb 21, 2002.

  1. Jon_W

    Jon_W Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am interested in upgrading to DVD Audio in the near future and need a little help workin through the technical details concerning what I need to sucessfullu enter the DVD-Audio world. I currently have a Denon AVR-3300 receiver and I know it has 6 channel inputs that can allow me to connect it to a DVD-Audio player. My questions concern the bass management situation that exists with DVD-Audio. I am currently in the process of upgrading my speakers. Currently I have a B&W CC6 centre speaker, a B&W ASW-1000 sub woofer, a pair of their 301 bookshelf speakers, and finally a pair of really cheap JVC floor standing speakers. I am planning on upgrading the JVC speakers to one of the floor standing DM600 series 3 B&W speakers, not sure which one yet. I am not very tech literate regarding speakers and am a littel confused at which speakers can and cannot handle the bass requirements of DVD. I know to enjoy DVD-Audio in all it's glory you either need "full range" speakers or an expense sive reciever that can handle DVD-Audio bass management. So since I'm not ready to buy a new receiver I figure I might as well get full range speakers all around. I know the DM301's aren't full range so I will have to replace those. I will also need new front and left mains. But is the CC6 centre considered full range? If someone could help me determine which B&W speakers are full range that would be great.

    Maybe just tell if this set up would work: CC6 s2 centre speaker, ASW-1000 sub, DM603 s3 mains, and DM602 S3 surrounds.

    Thank you
     
  2. Ned

    Ned Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2000
    Messages:
    838
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just make sure that the DVD-A player you buy does proper bass management within itself. That way you can set all your speakers to small and output the bass to just the LFE (sub).
     
  3. Jon_W

    Jon_W Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    I may be mistaken or behind the times but I thought DVD-Audio players did not do bass management. I've read up on DVD-Audio and the impression I got was the people who designed the DVD-Audio specs designed them in a way that assumed all people had full range speakers. That meant people without full range speakers had to upgrade their speakers to full range, or get a new receiver that allowed analog bass management via the 6 channel inputs, or buy some type of external bass management device. Am I wrong or just behind the times. If am wrong what players allow that type of bass management?
     
  4. Thomas_Berg

    Thomas_Berg Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2001
    Messages:
    1,422
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Dallas
    Real Name:
    Thomas
     
  5. Philip Hamm

    Philip Hamm Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 1999
    Messages:
    6,873
    Likes Received:
    2
    Your money would be better spent getting an Outlaw Audio ICBM for $250 and 602s with nice stands rather than 603s or 604s. You'll even be able to save a lot of $$$ in the process.

    I have three 602s and two 601S2s and an ICBM and DVD-Audio sounds fine and dandy. Most DVD-Audio players still have troubles with bass management. Remember DVD-Audio allows for bass frequencies all around. If you get two floor-standing speakers for the front L/R you'll only get bass from those speakers. You'll still miss the bass from the center and rears.
     
  6. Jon_W

    Jon_W Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've read that given the inablilty of DVD-Audio players to handle bass management that you need speakers with frequency range from over 20 khz to at or below 20 hz. Lets say I use the B&W DM603's as an example the website says they have a frequency range from 44hz to 22 khz. Does that fall in the category of full range. The CC6 cenre says it can handle between 78hz and 20khz. So wouldn't that mean it could handle the bass or am I reading it wrong? I was aware of the outlaw product but I do want a set of good tower speakers when I want ot listen to 2-channel stereo music. Would I be better to wait for a player that has proper bass management or is that not going to happen?

    Philip I understand what your saying about saving money but I am quite partial to getting either the 603 or 604s even when the whole DVD-Audio situaiton isn't involved. I'm just trying to find away to incorporate DVD-Audio into this speaker upgrade or into the DVD-playuer if that is possible. Right now the only things I'm not willing to upgrade are the receiver and the CC6 centre, so if the centre speaker can't handle the full range of frequecies than I guess I will have to either go the route of the outlaw bass mangement product or, well, I don't know what else to do.
     
  7. Steve_Ma

    Steve_Ma Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 7, 2001
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Jon,

    I am new to the whole DVA-A thing, so as far as the player's bass mgt capabilities.....I can't help you.

    I own the 603/601/ASW1000/CC6 setup. The 603s ARE NOT full range speakers. To be considered "full range," a speakers needs to be able to play the entire audible freq reange (20hz to 20khz) reasonably well. I believe that the figure on the website is pretty accurate. They really roll off around the mid-high 40hz range. They'll certainly play lower if you tell them to, but they'll start to distort. The same for the CC6 and the 602.

    From what I am hearing, the ICBM may be your best solutions if you're stuck on DVDA.

    And on another note: I love having the 603s as my mains.

    Good luck,

    --Steve
     
  8. Jon_W

    Jon_W Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks Steve

    From what your saying than I guess any type of full range speaker is probably out of my price range. I'm trying to learn a little bit more about speakers and have to admit I'm a little confused as to the whole meaning of hz and khz is there any type of charter or explanation anyone could point me to.

    Steve my system will will probably be similar to yours when it is done could you maybe talk about what you like and don't like about it in a little more detail. Any regrets? Thanks
     
  9. Steve_Ma

    Steve_Ma Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 7, 2001
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    0
    NP. I'll do the best I can. I'm sure someone will be able to jump in and correct me if I steer you off bass here.
    20hz is pretty much the lowest bass frequency that the human ear can detect. Some might be able to go alittle lower. Much lower than that and one might feel the air being displaced, but you won't actually here much in the way of audible volume.
    20khz is the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Sound waves which are much higher in their frequency (treble like instruments and etc). Human ears can't detect noise that is much higher than that. I believe a dog whistle might be a good example of an instrument that plays above that range.
    Everything in between is handled by your speakers, and is the range of human hearing (basically). Now, low bass. Say material in the 140hz and lower (going down towards 20hz) is much more difficult for speakers to accurately reproduce (those bass/kick drums and electric bass guitar notes). The lower the material being played, the more difficult is for your speakers to reproduce with any real accuracy. Hence, the desire to have an external sub and bass mgt, to focus on the low stuff and relieve the speakers of that load.
    Take a look at the link for an idea about the frequency range and how it relates to bass mgt.
    http://www.geocities.com/kierancoghlan/SPEAKERS1.html
    I'll email you over the weekend with my take on the speakers (Good and bad) as I don't want to totally derail the thread.
    Happy Hunting!
    --Steve
     
  10. Jon_W

    Jon_W Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks a lot Steve I'll look forward to your assessment.
     
  11. Thomas_Berg

    Thomas_Berg Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2001
    Messages:
    1,422
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Dallas
    Real Name:
    Thomas
    i wouldn't consider speakers to be full range unless they extend to ~30-35Hz with no problems. i believe the lowest note on a bass guitar is somewhere around 34Hz, so for most music you should be fine. i'm stll a strong believer that no system is complete without a subwoofer. if you do plan to listen to pipe organ music or something like the 1812 Overture (it has cannons that go pretty deep! [​IMG]), a subwoofer with extension to 20Hz is a must.
    here's what i suggest you do: wait until you have enough $$ to be able to get floorstanding 603's or 604's plus the center AND an ICBM. i really understand the want to have floorstanders and i think that, since that is really what you want, having something other than that for a period of less than a year will be money better spent elsewhere. wait a little longer until you can get the B&W's you want AND the ICBM at the same time. for these new multichannel hi-res formats, bass management is a must.
    i completely feel what you're going through right now! this August, i'll be making some major upgrades should include new B&W floorstanders (hopefully i'll have the $$ to be able to get CDM-NT's [​IMG]) plus the center to match, a new Sony ES SACD player and an ICBM. can you tell why i'm always strapped for cash? [​IMG]
     
  12. Philip Hamm

    Philip Hamm Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 1999
    Messages:
    6,873
    Likes Received:
    2
    The CC6 can't begin to reproduce bass frequencies well. As a matter of fact I'd cross over the center channel speaker at 100Hz even if it can go lower because sitting on the box of a TV will play hell with bass frequencies.
     
  13. Jon_W

    Jon_W Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    Philip I didn't mean to shrug off your recommendation altogeher and I will absolutlely check out the 602 especially with your enthusiasm for them. The reason I'm stuck on the floor standing models probalby has more to due with perceptions than proven performance. Back in 1999 I was looking at speakers and tested out the 603's and the 604's and noticed quite a difference between them. So I naturally didn't think to check out the 602's, but given the price difference:$600, $1100, and $1700, respectivley I guess I should really give all three a good listen. From what I read about the new series 3 they are quite different speaker from the series 2 you have so I guess that throws another factor in.

    I think what I'll end up doing DVD-Audio wise is finish upgrading my speakers and then see if any players can do any sort of extensive bass management by then and if not I will go with the ICBM from outlaw.

    Philip when you talk about setting the cross over for the centre to 100hz do you mean set the subs crossover to 100hz? I have it set at 80hz right now.

    Philip since you have DVD-Audio would you mind sharing your opinions on how it sounds. Your overall impressions and is it worth it. I'd love to hear what you think

    P.S. Looks like you had a great meet at your home.
     
  14. Jon_W

    Jon_W Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    Got your email Steve. Thanks for taking the time. Yours views will give men something to think over.
     
  15. Steve_Ma

    Steve_Ma Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 7, 2001
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    0
    NP. And best of luck. Bet sure to let us know what you eventually end up with.

    --Steve
     
  16. AaronD

    AaronD Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    234
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd just like to put my vote in for the 604/603 S3's and an outlaw ICBM. I own a pair of 604 S3's for my mains an listen to them w/o a sub for two channel music and I love them. I've got to upgrade at least my center channel and get an ICBM, but I can see the need for a good musical sub after that...Although it's not entirely necessary.
    I've yet to be dissapointed by these speakers and would recommend them to anyone. B&W makes really good stuff.
    -Aaron
     
  17. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 1999
    Messages:
    1,479
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  18. Jon_W

    Jon_W Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2000
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the replies guys. I think I'll end up taking the practical route and follow Philip's advice and listen to all sets of speakers, especially since I have not listened to the new series 3.

    David most likely I will end up doing the upgrades in steps, the new L/R mains, then a DVD-Audio player, and from there see what else I need to get. I hoping by Christmas of 2003 to get a widescreen TV so I want to get a few other upgrades in before that.
     
  19. Philip Hamm

    Philip Hamm Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 1999
    Messages:
    6,873
    Likes Received:
    2
     
  20. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 1999
    Messages:
    1,479
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's a good way to go, Jon. By the time you are ready to get your DVD-A player, a new generation will be out, so it will probably have some kind of bass management.
    If you are going to wait awhile though, there might even be some players in the first quarter of 2003 with a digital out for DVD-A, if they iron out a standard. Of course that opens up a whole other can of worms because then you will need to upgrade your receiver or pre/pro, too(isn't this hobby great? [​IMG]).
    As for the HDTV, don't wait until Christmas 2003--that's what 0% financing for a year is for. [​IMG]
    Good luck,
    DJ
     

Share This Page