B&W floor standers (600 series) vs. CDM1NTs (1 Viewer)

[rodneyH]

Jeremy, interesting that you like the 600 series sound more than the CDM, but you like the Nautilus speaker the best. Especially interesting when you consider the driver and tweeters are much much more similar in the CDM vs 800 THAN 600 vs 800, I have some 602's in my garage collecting dust, they are very jealous of my new CDM7NTs.

btw, the CDCNT is $400 cheaper than the HTM2, and ONLY $100 more than the LCR6. Seems to me the choice is very logical there, the difference in the LCR and the CDM is huge, while the difference between the HTM2 and the CDM is very small (it is call "law of demishing returns"), don't get me wrong, the HTM2 is a very very nice piece, and if I had another $400 in my pocket I would have gotten them (actually I did have another $400 in my pocket and chose to save for a new amp, oh well, I guess I just lied-TIC).

 

[KeithR]

I would say wait until you can get 804s or above. The CDMs aren't all that great, and you will want to upgrade anyways---so be patient for a while, and then you can buy what you really want when you have the dough. You might also audition some Dynaudios and other speakers in the mean time to keep getting out into the stores and having fun.
Do you feel like you have to go B&W? Sounds like you have lots of time on your side to find a deal. So many speakers out that are pretty darn good for the money...
Keith

 

[Dennis B]

Keith,
I'm with you. Since I've made the mistake of listening to a pair of 804s at my dealer's, then a bigger mistake of listening to 803s, that's all I can think about. It's a lot of money, a long time saving it, not easy to justify, but damn do they sound good! I have the same setup as Pete, BTW. Hopefully I won't run into any 802s or 801s any soon!

 

[Bob-N]

Whoo, a lot of discussion while I was gone. Good points to all. Comments:
Jeremy, I would tend to agree with Rodney as I am stretching my speaker budget to $1k-ish. Pushing the budget to $1.5-2k is out of the question at this point, so 805's (even used) are out of the question for me. In addition, there is only a $100 difference between the centers (maybe $200 after I sell the LCR6) and that's within the budget when I replace my LCR6 S2.
Also, for my HT store, they wouldn't take my series 2 back as a part of their 1 yr upgrade policy so that's why I am keeping them (for the time being) for rears. Also, if the itch of upgrade-itis shows up, I will have the option for full credit towards 800's as long as the CDM line doesn't get updated. Didn't listen to the 800 series because they were in a different room and I couldn't A/B them on the same equipment w/o a big mess. Cost (as noted above) was also a factor.
Keith, yes, I do have time, but I'm impatient. I've been waiting for a pre/pro for over 7 months and I'm itching to finish my set up. I just got the email from Outlaw this morning (yeeesh!) and have an AVM20 on order due to arrive sometime in April. I'll be doing an A/B comparison (not planning on any blind testing) when both units arrive. I'll return (950) or sell (AVM20) the "loser".
All: The final result? I ended up with a pair of CDM1's. I was able to demo 602/603 S3's (broken in for about 50 hours) directly w/CDM1's (well broken in) using a bunch of Rotel components (1080 amp, 961 CD player, 971 stereo preamp) and no sub using some classic rock CDs, Clapton (live guitar), Genesis/Phil Collins (drums), Heart (live women vocals), Stevie Nicks (women vocals) and U2 (very clear recordings, multiple instruments). Even w/o a sub, there was no comparison. The CDM's were clear and "airy" and seemed to have a larger soundstage at the top end. I didn't worry about the low end w/ the CDM1's but they did pack a pretty good punch on drum heavy tracks. With my 20-39PC, the combo will be outstanding.
Now I know what people say when they are talking about "airy-ness". The soundstage was large and spacious. When compared to the 600's, to me, the music appeared to be behind baffles or a curtain and that the top of the soundstage was somehow "chopped off". It probably has to do with the tweeter on top design vs. the standard tweeter in the box design.
Price was ok (about 12% off MSRP) as neither location had demos to offer at a heavier discount. I tried to get closer to $1k, but walked out the door in the low $1100's for the cherry veneer CDM1's so not too bad. I'll gladly pay a bit more for new w/warranty and good service at SF Stereo.
In closing, IMHO, the CDM1's are definately worth double the 602's and are definately better than the 603's at the same price point. Next sale, CDMC center to replace the LCR6 S2. Any takers?
Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks for taking the time to post your opinions and thoughts.
Bob

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

"Seems to me the choice is very logical there, the difference in the LCR and the CDM is huge, while the difference between the HTM2 and the CDM is very small (it is call "law of demishing returns"),"
Okay Rodney, you have your opinions, I have mine. Mine is that the CDM line does not and can not touch the Nautilus line, period.
Bob,
Congrats on your purchase. The Nautilus speakers carry a hefty price tag, for sure. But, as you found on the used market, they retain that value too. I am interested in your LCR6...send me an e-mail with pricing info.
Jeremy

 

[Frank_S]

Bob, congratulations on your purchase. Sounds like you really did your homework and are happy with your choice.
The Cherry looks very nice too, what stands are you going to be using? Hopefully you can get the CDMCNT soon so your system will be complete(for now,LOL). Happy listening!

 

[Bob-N]

Jeremy and Rodney, play nice. I don't think it was intended as a jab, just an opinion. I'm sure the Nautilus line is the one to shoot for, but it's too much of a stretch for me at this time.

Jeremy, an email is on the way....

Frank, I'm using some cheap Sanus Natural Foundation stands right now (they look great but probably not best for rigidity). I'm probably going to "upgrade" my stands also if it dampens the sound in my environment significantly.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

"Especially interesting when you consider the driver and tweeters are much much more similar in the CDM vs 800 THAN 600 vs 800,"

Rodney....

I just wanted to point out the specs from the B&W website.

The CDM CNT, you are correct, has the same drivers as the HTM-2....however, the LCR6s2 has the same drivers as both the HTM-2 and the CDM CNT, BUT with an additional 165mm woven kevlar bass driver. Each of the 3 have 25mm metal dome high frequency drivers. Each of the three also have 165mm woven kevlar mid/bass drivers. The LCR6s2 and the CDM CNT weigh exactly the same with the same nominal impedence. The power handling of the LCR6 is 25-150 watts, while the CDM CNT is 50-120watts. DIspersion of the LCR6 and the CDM CNT is exactly the same....40 degrees horizontally and 10 degrees vertically.

Funny thing is, the new series 3 LCR600 has better dispersion than either the LCR6 or the CDM CNT with 20 degrees vertical.

The CDM CNT and the LCR6 are almost identical with drivers with the exception of the LCR6 having an additional bass driver. You can see the rest of the similarities above.

You will find the same similarities throughout the 600 series line in comparison to the rest of the CDM line. The Nautilus line does not compare to either the CDM or 600 series...with the exception of the HTM-2.

Jeremy

 

[Larry B]

Bob N:
Sorry for the delay in responding - - - too damn many threads to follow:

Larry B, can you describe your definition of "refined" sound? Is that the same as "laid back", non-forward, warm?

How about this: A bit more fine detail, and less boomy.
The CD1NT's are not laid back. For that quality, I would suggest you listen to the Sonus faber Concertinos. (A personal favorite of mine in that price range.)
Larry
Edit: Now that I had a chance to read the rest of the posts, I see you already made your decision. I'll try to be quicker next time.

 

[Larry B]

Jeremy:

Mine is that the CDM line does not and can not touch the Nautilus line, period.

You've got my vote on that one.

Larry

 

[Frank_S]

Jeremy said,
Quote:"The CDM CNT and the LCR6 are almost identical with drivers with the exception of the LCR6 having an additional bass driver".
Sharing similar drivers and tweeters is only part of the equation, a major factor left out of your analysis is enclosure design and crossover points to better utilize said drivers and tweeters. Having owned 603's,CDM's,and now N804's, I would say that the 600 series sounds closed in or even muffled when compared with the CDM line, IMO.
I'm not putting down the performance of the 600 series, just trying to say that there is quite an improvement in performance when moving up through the 3 lines even though they do share similar drivers(in some cases).

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

"Sharing similar drivers and tweeters is only part of the equation, a major factor left out of your analysis is enclosure design and crossover points to better utilize said drivers and tweeters."
Frank,
I couldn't agree more. Just wish Rodney had that argument, the design of the box, the open air tweeter, crossovers, binding posts, etc. All design characteristics that will improve or limit sound quality.
Rodney's argument and stab at me was based on "Different or similar drivers." My preference for the 600 series over the CDM line-up is simply that the expense of the CDM line vs. the Nautilus line is about the same as going from 600s to the CDMs. If you are that close to having the money for that range of speaker, why not chose the best...save up a couple more weeks/months and go Nautilus
You're so close....
Jeremy

 

[rodneyH]

Jeramy, you are basing that opinion on the # and size of the drivers, interesting, so is the 602 better than the 805? btw, when you mention the info about the HTM, you must also say the same about the 805. About the dispersion arguement, funny how so many people put the LCR on ITS SIDE as a center channel where it ONLY has 10 degrees of dispersion. I am not slamming the LCR6 or the 600 line (like I said, I have a pair of 602s in the garage collecting dust and a pair of 601s for my rears, they are fine speakers, but the level of the CDM is beyond them as is the CM line. ANd the 800 series is better than the CDM line, as expected.) you give #'s to compare the 800, cdm, and 600, but there is something that #'s can't show, it is called "sound" (IMHO), which does bring up another issue, when I bought my 602, I have a frien who has a B&W dealer, he had them hooked up to a $6000 theta amp, and I did one of those demos where I couldn't leave my seat, it was incredable, for only $600 the amount of speaker you get is awesome, and with a very good amp, it is even better. I will agree that the 800 is the finest, and someday I will get the 803 or 804, but as for now, I really don't feel the need. I like to compare things to cars (since I am a car fanatic) I would say the 600 series is like a honda accord, a very good automobile for the $$, and good enough for 80% of the people out there, while the CDM series would be like a BMW M3 a very high performer and even cosidered a "value" for its level, while the 800 is like a ferari or BMW Z8, the best of the best.

 

[rodneyH]

Jeramy, I wrote my last post before reading yours above it, I hope you don't think I am slamming you by any means. This is NOT a personal issue, and I hope you don't take it that way, I am just stating what I have found. I hope you don't take it the wrong way, it wasn't intended to be personal.

btw, when you mention just going a couple weeks of "saving up." you must also realize that some of us are already stretching to get what we have (on my income I should realistically be keeping my 602's and never have gotten the CDM7), so the extra $1600 to get the 804 over the cdm7 would be impossible, unless I wanted to keep a cheap reciever instead of gettting very high quality amps, and that would defeat the purpose IMHO. exept I could have gotten the 805, but I really didn't feel like it was a "better buy" than the cdm7, and like you said, if I really want teh 800 series, I want to go all teh way (but I must say, I have heard some great systems with the 805s)

Peace, I hope I didn't offend you.

 

[KeithR]

Now hold on, a Nautilus can not be compared to a Z8, even in audio land. Wilson Grand Slamms maybe, but certainly not any Nautilus series, except the original snail looking "Nautilus"

 

[rodneyH]

NO, wilsons are lambogini Diablos or Ferarri 550 marenellos, the best of the best (or maybe a Mclaren F1).-tic

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

"Peace, I hope I didn't offend you."

No offense taken...just that you found it interesting that I like the 600 series more than the CDMs. I also feel that the CM line is only a step up maybe cosmetically, not sonically. I feel that the CDMs are an expensive step up for not that much of an improvement over the 600s, but the Nautilus line does not approach the law of diminishig returns...because, IMO, they are THAT much better than all the others.

I have been visiting my local B&W b&m weekly for years, listening to the different B&W models with different electronics. I appreciate every line of their speakers, but when asked for recommendations...I would always recommend someone look at the 600s before the 300s and the Nautilus before the CDMs. Even if one had to sacrifice size for the next line....i.e. the 9NT for maybe the 805s with stands. I suppose this argument doesn't hold up as well with someone interested in the 1NTs. I understand budgets that we all have for our particular gear. My feelings are, however, if one can afford $2000 for speakers, $3000 isn't that much more. We are all hobbyists and therefore tend to spend alot of what we make on our hobby. It is all relative, I suppose.

Jeremy

 

[rodneyH]

Jeremy, good point about the CM series, exept they do use a different driver that is aluminum and sounds different than the "traditional" b&w sound. My buddy who owns a B&W told me a story about these speakers, He says that they were origionally designed for the european (british) market, and apperantly some dealer was getting them from there and selling them in his store, as the story goes, people really began to request them and the demand got so high and people began to recommend to B&W to sell them in the US. As it turns out, some people really prefer the different sound that they have, I was also one of those that initially thought that they were "dressed up" 600s, but my buddy tells me that that isn't true, because the sound is so much different. I must say that the cabnets are very very nice as well, not as nice as the CDM and certainly not as nice as the 800 series, but a very solid construction for the price. Myself, I would rather have the 600 series because of the "sound". SO I am not really sure what to think about the CM vs 600 series.

about the $2000 vs $3000 issue, actually in my case it would be $2000 vs $3600 (CDM7 vs 804) (actually I get tehm 20% off so it is ONLY about $1300 difference, but certainly that is a lot when I origionally had the 602 and was planning on upgrading to the CDM1 at $1200 (retail) and then decided to get the $2000 cdm7, so I really have gone from a $600 speaker to getting a $1200 speaker and decided to already stretch and get the $2000 cdm7, so the differnce in $ is huge when You look at it that way (mot just the $1300 difference that teh cdm7 and 804 show). I actually ended up getting a very nice amp (and that has even increased the perfromance of my CDms even more. I got a Marsh sound design $2300 amp for just over $1000 (I love having freinds in the bussiness) and it is incredable how good it sounds even compared to my much appreciated Rotel Amp). I guess this game/disease can never end?

 

[Bob-N]

Larry(space)B...hehehe, no prob.
Thanks for the response. That's what I found with the CDM1's...more detailed, less boom. If I want boom, that's what my SVS cranked up is for!
You guys are cracking me up. I'm a BMW guy too, but the Mclaren F1 is the ultimate super car. The Z8 is a totally different genre, but a very nice car. I'll take the "value" M3 (BMW: make the four door please!) over the Z8 and it's $125k price tag.
Hmmm, there seems to be a constant theme here. Each step up seems to double the price, double the enjoyment? Coincedence?
two accords ~ M3
two M3 ~ one Z8
two Diablos ~ Mclaren F1
two CDM1 ~ 805
two 602 ~ CDM1
two 303 ~ 602

 

[rodneyH]

bob, I agree, I would rather have the M3 more than perhaps any car in the world, save the Ferarri 360 (but everytime I get a paint chip in that thing I would feel like killing somebody). I don't think that it will ever come out in a 4 door, I have not heard any rumors to support that theory. Ironically the M5 is also a GREAT deal, think that you can get a 4 door $75,000 car with the SAME engine as a $130,000 (actually they really sell for about $160,000) Z8 convertable. That is really pretty amazing whan you think about it, but to me, "bigger isn't always better", thus the M3 dream (or 911 or 360).