b**** & moan time: Total Film Top 100 films (1 Viewer)

[andrew markworthy]

George, we could carry on this rather tedious argument for a long time, but let's stop it, okay? Life's too short. The irony is that I largely agree with you in taste in films.

Going back to the original thread topic. I've seen all the films, I like a lot of them, think others are overrated or just plain awful. As others have said, the ordering is perverse - does anyone *seriously* think that Fight Club is a better film than Citizen Kane or Tokyo Story? And it's the ordering that primarily gives me qualms about this list. I can see a case for some of the weaker/more controversial choices getting in the lower reaches of the list, but in the top 20? I think not.

 

[george kaplan]

Agreed. However, I do want to ask you a question, because now I've been to the S&S site, and I'm more confused than ever as to what the 'official' list is.

As far as I can tell, there are at least 4 lists at that site. A critic's top 10, a director's top 10, a 'rest of' critic's list, and a 'rest of' director's list. Which of these 4 were you referring to as the 'official' list? I certainly have far less problems with the top 10 lists than the 'rest of' lists, which I have less problems with than the HTF list (which is a combined director/critics list of at least 2 votes, rather than the 4 votes necessary for the 'rest of' lists on the BFI site). But as I said, I'm not more confused than ever as to what the 'official' list is.

 

[Armin Jager]

I did already write that STAR WARS won't be forgotten - which is a shame. I'm (or was) a big STAR TREK fan but would never have the idea to put one of the films in a TOP 20 list. And STAR WARS is dumb. It has a director whose most interesting ideas are Riefenstahl references which are so tasteless you could slap this idiot Lucas. You have a third rate lead actor Mark Hamill. You have a second class leading lady. You have a story which is put together with the most essential stereotypes (hero, princess, sidekick, old sage and mentor). Instead of at least admitting that her's making a silly adventure, Lucas introduces pseudophilosphical talk about the force which is hair raisingly silly. STAR WARS is a disaster in every aspect of film making: direction, acting, character development, story, visual presentation, deeper meaning and thoughts. It's so bad, it doesn't belong in a TOP 5000 list and yes I mean this seriously.

A really, really good list should be made by people who have seen many movies from all times and all countries. And these people should be independent of current critical trends and personal preferences.
The S&S list is more balanced but it obviously also has its own pitfalls.
To take an example: the best thing what can happen to you as a director is to be part of a movement. If you are part of the nouvella vague, your name will always be mentioned in single breath like ... GodardTruffautChabrolRivetteRohmerResnaisMalleVard a. Then it's always helpful to be the lone wolf outside of all current developments like Bresson or Dreyer, you can be sure you will be admired for it.
You have extremely bad luck if you don' fit into a current fashion like auterism and a re merely a good director.

To name three directors most here hardly heard ever of: Staudte, Scola and Sautet.
All three belong to the most important directors of the world cinema but are almost unknown. Sautet scored one vote in the S&S poll, the others zero.
Why?
Well they have two fatal flaws. The first is they aren't flashy enough, it's not sombre Antonioni mood, avantgarde Godard, cutting Eisenstein or peotic Tarkovsky. The second is even worse,: they made their films at the wrong time. Staudte worked between 1946 and 1963 in German cinema and German cinema between 1933 and 1965 is almost completely unknown because it has a bad reputation which is mostly right, but unfortunately the good films drown with the bad ones. Scola made his great films between 1977 and 1991 in Italy, exactly after the end of the careers of the well known Italian classics. The decline of the Italian cinema in the 80s unjustly sunk him, too. And Sautet worked mostly in the 70s and suffered in his international recognition from being overshadowed by the nouvelle vague despite making marvellous pictures with Romy Schneider through the 70s.

I really wsh sombody would do the job right.

 

[Haggai]

Well, you could look at it that way, but I don't put much weight on the term "impersonal" as you use it. I would be thrilled to come across some movies that I admire more than Casablanca, The Godfather, or Lawrence of Arabia, but until I do (if I ever do), I would only be pretending if I claimed that some less famous movie ranks higher than them in my estimation. For instance, although this is not the most obscure example, I was thrilled to see Bergman's "The Naked Night" at a festival last summmer, which I thought was a brilliant movie. It might seem more "personal" if I replaced the much more well-known Wild Strawberries in my Top 20 list with that one, but it would make no sense, as I really do think Wild Strawberries is the best Bergman I've seen, as well as one of the best movies of any type I've seen. Which is not to say that other people are "faking it," or whatever, if they put less celebrated movies in their Top 20, but I certainly would be if I did.

And regarding other recent movies like LOTR, it's fine that you don't like them, as you've explained at length with Star Wars. Nobody disputes your right to that opinion. But when you attribute someone putting LOTR or Empire Strikes Back among their top films to "lacking historical perspective," as you did up-thread, that's completely judgmental. Whatever disagreements you might have with my own preferences, I assume you're familiar enough with what I like (and what I tend to seek out to watch) to acknowledge that historical perspective on movies is not something that I lack.

 

[Kevin M]

....."fighted"?

 

[andrew markworthy]

There is in fact an official list which is a compendium of the directors' and critics' lists. However, it seems to be missing from the site. I think the top ten lists are simply the top ten from the bigger lists.

 

[Jason Roer]

Armin,

I have to agree with Bob on this one. Star Wars can be considered trash by you if that's your true opinion. But first of all, it's over 30 years old and is quite far from being forgotten. Second, it absolutely revolutionized the industry and how movies are made. Third, it's dear to the hearts of millions of viewers around the world (not just the US). Fourth, it's actually a great screenplay - textbook style. It follows all the rules. The list could go on.

I'd agree the new trilogy is absolute crap - something that would have been forgotten within a year of its release had it not come with the Star Wars name. But to say the original in the same category is just an oversight on your part.

Cheers,

Jason