AVIA/Ultimate DVD/etc Calibration Help with DLP TV

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Sidney, Feb 1, 2005.

  1. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    I bought a Mitsubishi DLP 52725 53" TV. After situating the TV where I wanted it, I popped my AVIA DVD into the DVD player. After trying to play with the Black Levels, Contrasts, I came to the conclusion that my Avia DVD was useless. I suspected that it was meant for a CRT TV (which I confirmed on this web site.) I then popped in my other calibration DVDs to find they did the same thing (which led me to originally believe that the calibration tools were for CRTs).

    With 3 different calibration DVDs of no use (sigh.. they are not cheap! wish I knew that before I bought them) I'm at a lost of how to calibrate my DLP TV. I'm guessing they can still calibrate sharpness. but what else.. Color?

    What would you recommend to do to calibrate a DLP to get the best black level, contrast, etc?

    Any input would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    How on earth did you arrive at this conclusion!?

    In any case, it is not the case at all. Test patterns are useful in calibrating ANY display device. How you use the pattern may vary depending on how a particular display functions. DLPs are fairly easy to calibrate your black level, you just observe closely for dithering, and get your blacks so that there is no dithering in black (fairly simplified). Whites, you want to be below the point of clipping of colorshifting. Pretty straightforward.

    Wherever it was stated that these discs are only for CRTs is sorely incorrect. Could you also like where this was stated? It should be corrected.
     
  3. Pat Frank

    Pat Frank Stunt Coordinator

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    I can tell you where that's stated -- it's a VERY conspicuous place. If you go over to Amazon.com and bring up the page where they sell that Avia DVD, and if you look down under reviews you'll see that the third review, from someone named "Gadgester", a Top 50 Reviewer, is extremely negative and specifically negative about Avia's applicability to DLP and LCD devices like PJs.

    This quote is particularly frightening:


    I've been meaning to look into it further myself; Sidney's just one step ahead of me here.
     
  4. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    That quoted statement is not correct, but not particularly uncommon. Test patterns are test patterns. You use them on whatever. Admittedly, Avia Pro has some usability features in the much more thorough pattern sets that can make them slightly easier to use on all display devices, but there is nothing about any set of test patterns that makes it "inappropriate" to use on non-CRT displays.

    The explanations, however, are geared towards CRT displays, because of the time it was released CRTs were far and away the dominant display type.

    But statements that Avia, or any other test disc is not useful on newer displays is user ignorance.

    His statement that follows:

    seems full of bunk, because if he actually did know what he was doing, he'd know how to use the patterns properly, and why pattern sets will always include patterns that are not always useful in all situations, such as convergence grids, etc.
     
  5. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    Reason for my statement was that the moving bars (black level test) do not appear when adjusting my settings, whether I set it to max or min. I know it's okay on Plasmas since I have calibrated my father in law's Mitsubishi plasma tv before. I probably should have mention AVia works on plasmas as well but I was just stating a quick thought. No offense attended. Yes test patterns are useful and I can use a lot of the patterns to calibrate my DLP, but there are some tests that it can't perform which makes me skeptical on some of it's tests.

    Any case I did read something about DLPs and the Avia calibration problem from a post that Guy Kuo responded to.. Maybe I misunderstood his post but I do believe he mentioned that some tests can't be done with Avia. Note believe that Guy is associated with Avia. If I'm wrong about my statement then please correct me. I was hoping Guy might stop in my post and correct me if I'm wrong.

    I do know that the moving bars was not there. All I got was a black screen. Go to a store carrying a Mitsubishi DLP 52525/52725/52925 and try it for yourself.

    side note: I really like Avia the most out of my calibration discs, I pop that one in first. Also note that I did try all 3 of my calibration DVDs and they all did the same thing. (Discwasher, Ultimate DVD)
     
  6. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    Adding to my response.. I'm not using the Avia Pro.. can't justify spending $400 for a calibration DVD which I would use a once or twice a year.
     
  7. Alf S

    Alf S Banned
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    FYI: From the Avia(Pro)Website:

    Does Avia PRO work on 1080i?

    The Avia PRO disc set has its test material in 480P format. In order to use the tests at 1080i, it would need to be passed through an upconverter prior to being fed into a client's system. I can't recommend doing so because signal level accuracy cannot be guaranteed through the conversion. Although we do have HDTV pattern synthesis capability in house, we are awaiting a practical HDTV disc delivery media before releasing Avia PRO signals in HD format.
     
  8. John S

    John S Producer

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    The problems you state with the bars / blacks. Is usually a setting that is worng on either the display / DVD player or in some cases both. The setting is usually indicated by a 0 or 1, sometimes even called Black level.
     
  9. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    Wrong on the DVD Player? What exactly are you talking about for that? I would like a example to just to see if I fit that category.. but I can't see how I set my DVD player incorrectly. Currently my DVD player is Pioneer 3 disc changer w/ karoake mic inputs. The DVD/TV are hooked up via Component (video) and RCA (audio) cables.

    Could you also give a example on the wrong TV settings? Note I did adjust all the settings such as contrast brightness, etc to max and min to see if I could see the moving bars in the "black" level calibration. When I go home, I'll try hooking it up in different ways to see if I get any change.
     
  10. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    If you're not seeing the black bars in Avia, this means that your system is clipping above-black shadow details. This indicates that something, most likely the source or processing, is screwing up your video. Avia is working, and it is revealing the errors in your video chain that you need to rectify to get proper video.


    If you could reference what was said (link preferred) we can shed some light on it. Guy designed all of the test patterns for Avia and Avia Pro, he's the man behind it. I think he's busy and/or out of commission at the moment, so I doubt he'll make it into this thread. In any case, there are some advanced limitations to Avia, but they have nothing to do with display type.

    That you're not seeing the black bars in Avia is especially bad, because Avia does not contain bars or pattern elements that are below reference black. Below black material is notoriously handled improperly and clipped in many video sources and processors. That you aren't even seeing the *above* black bars means you are even more severely damaging and irreparably losing shadow detail in your image.
     
  11. John S

    John S Producer

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    Well maybe not as commonly known as I had thought...

    There are two different standards for black level. The setting toggles between the two standards. I have seen it on DVD players, and HD displays. I'm pretty darn sure I have corrected this same anomilly on more than one persons system by changing this.

    Others may be able to explain it better. I just know if the blacks are not cooperating, this is usually the culprit.
     
  12. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    Thanks for the input.. I'll take a look at the TV again. I'm hoping it's not getting clipped by the TV. Just bought this TV last week and Mitsubishi has a good reputation on TVs. I'll try running the signal from my DVD player to my old 21" CRT TV to make sure there's nothing wrong with my DVD player. I know.. sounds like I'm shooting things in the dark, but I got to logically rule out some of my possible problems. Based on what I heard from you guys, the pattern is not related to the type of TV I have, I'll have to determine where my problem is situated at. I'll bring in my DVD to the store where I bought my TV to just see if their TV can produce the moving bars.
     
  13. Guy Kuo

    Guy Kuo Supporting Actor

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    1. Brightness not contrast is used to affect the dark portions of the image.

    If the above is not your problem then one of two possibilities are present.

    A. If connected via an analog connection, the DVD player is set to enhance black or whatever equivalent the manufacturer has named that control. Meanwhile the display is expecting normal level black. Turn enhanced blacks OFF in the DVD player setup menu.

    B. If connected via DVI, the display is expecting to see video DVI levels but the player is outputing video using computer DVI levels. There may or may not be controls on the display or player to adjust this. They must agree with each other to allow proper display of shadow details.
     
  14. John S

    John S Producer

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    Much better explanation there Guy.... I'll try to word it better in the future than I did in my post about it. [​IMG]
     
  15. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    Sorry my bad.. I meant brightness. I'm not in front of my TV with the DVD running (I have been following the AVIA instructions). I'll try another DVD player.. it's possible my DVD player is causing me problems.. just didn't expect it to be there. I am using Component cables with my DVD player. My DVD player is older unit.. don't think it has the enhance black option. I'll try playing with it tonight.

    Thanks for stopping by Guy. I very much apprecaite it. (I emailed him earlier..) I also appreciate everybody's input and help here) I will definitely let you know the result. Thanks
     
  16. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    Well I just wanted to complete this thread.. I discover the problem was my DVD player. If you saw my thread in the TV section, it mentions I tested my DVD player at the store and it had the same overly dark images for night time scenes. Unfortunately for me is that the DVD player doesn't have any Black enhancement option in it so I can't just flip a setting and fix it. Any case I really appreciate the input from you guys.
     
  17. John S

    John S Producer

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    Good the culprit has been found!!!!! Just goes to show how one upgrade inevitably will lead to more upgrades. [​IMG]
     
  18. Sidney

    Sidney Stunt Coordinator

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    Don't forget about leading to more money. ($_$)
     

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