Avengers: Infinity War -- Spoilers Thread

JimmyO

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One plot point which I wish wasn't used was Star Lord basically messing up everything by smacking Thanos when they almost had the gauntlet off of him.

It would have been nice if the elimination of half of the galaxy's life wasn't his fault. That felt a bit weak.
 
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Jake Lipson

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One plot point which I wish wasn't used was Star Lord basically messing up everything by smacking Thanos when they almost had the gauntlet off of him.
I'm actually not sure it was his fault. Dr. Strange should have been able to see that Peter would mess up the plan, but he allowed it to happen anyway. I think this means that Strange knows it had to happen in this way for them to win. By giving Thanos the stone, he must be setting up the one version of the future where they actually win. If he had wanted to stop Peter from messing up, he could probably have done so, and chose not to.

Clearly, Thanos has to think he has won, for now, in order to eventually lose.
 
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JimmyO

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I'm actually not sure it was his fault. Dr. Strange should have been able to see that Peter would mess up the plan, but he allowed it to happen anyway. I think this means that Strange knows it had to happen in this way for them to win. By giving Thanos the stone, he must be setting up the one version of the future where they actually win. If he had wanted to stop Star Lord from messing up, he could probably have done so, and chose not to.

Clearly, Thanos has to think he has won, for now, in order to eventually lose.
I don't disagree with the idea that Thanos had to win for the plot to advance. I just wish they had found another way to have their plan to get the gauntlet foiled. It just made star lord look weak and foolish given how close they were to (possible) victory, and his emotions wrecked it all.
 
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Jake Lipson

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I just wish they had found another way to have their plan to get the gauntlet foiled. It just made star lord look weak and foolish given how close they were to (possible) victory, and his emotions wrecked it all.
That's fair. But I actually really liked it for the same reason you didn't. Peter's emotion was what sold that for me. Intellectually, he knows what losing will mean, but finding out that Thanos killed Gamora put the intellectual out of his head and it was pure emotion. Yes, it was their undoing -- but it was a really sweet moment, and Chris Pratt really made me feel his devastation.
 

Adam Lenhardt

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My one major complaint with the film is that too much is sacrificed to protect Vision. All of Wakanda is threatened, and hundreds if not thousands of Wakandans die so that one man/artificial intelligence can live. As an audience member, I needed a stronger reason for why destroying the stone wasn't the right move.
 

Jake Lipson

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As an audience member, I needed a stronger reason for why destroying the stone wasn't the right move.
Yes, especially since he said he was willing to die, and Wanda ended up destroying the stone anyway.

That being said, the whole Wanda-Vision relationship was really paid off to a tee and was one of the most emotionally resonant parts of the movie for me.
 

Sean Bryan

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My one major complaint with the film is that too much is sacrificed to protect Vision. All of Wakanda is threatened, and hundreds if not thousands of Wakandans die so that one man/artificial intelligence can live. As an audience member, I needed a stronger reason for why destroying the stone wasn't the right move.
“Because THAT’S what heroes do.”
 

Jake Lipson

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I also think the answer is because Vision is a main character that the audience is supposed to be invested inand the random background extra Wakandan citizens are not. It's a storytelling flaw, but it's also probably true.
 

Adam Lenhardt

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“Because THAT’S what heroes do.”
Knowingly sacrifice hundreds to save one?

It was one thing in Civil War when Rogers sided with the possibility of Bucky being deprogrammed against the probability of him causing more pain and suffering. But here, mass casualties weren't just a probability, they were a certainty. He was a soldier in the most horrific conflict in human history. He's well aware of the arithmetic.

I liked the payoff, and especially Wanda and Vision's final scene together. I just needed a stronger strategic reason to balance the scales in such a lopsided way.
 

Sean Bryan

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Knowingly sacrifice hundreds to save one?

It was one thing in Civil War when Rogers sided with the possibility of Bucky being deprogrammed against the probability of him causing more pain and suffering. But here, mass casualties weren't just a probability, they were a certainty. He was a soldier in the most horrific conflict in human history. He's well aware of the arithmetic.

I liked the payoff, and especially Wanda and Vision's final scene together. I just needed a stronger strategic reason to balance the scales in such a lopsided way.
You didn’t get the reference I take it?
 

Brett_B

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My one major complaint with the film is that too much is sacrificed to protect Vision. All of Wakanda is threatened, and hundreds if not thousands of Wakandans die so that one man/artificial intelligence can live. As an audience member, I needed a stronger reason for why destroying the stone wasn't the right move.
I thought this part of the movie was T'Challa's call to save Vision by removing the Mind Stone from him in order to destroy it. I thought the entire battle on Wakanda was to fight (sacrifice themselves) in order to destroy the stone, because if Thanos gets the stone more people, not only in Wakanda, would suffer.
 

TravisR

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I thought this part of the movie was T'Challa's call to save Vision by removing the Mind Stone from him in order to destroy it. I thought the entire battle on Wakanda was to fight (sacrifice themselves) in order to destroy the stone, because if Thanos gets the stone more people, not only in Wakanda, would suffer.
The counterpoint to that is that if they sacrificed Vision and tore the stone off his head, that would have saved the people fighting for Wakanda. However, I think by that point, Thanos' forces would have kept their attack up even if the stone was destroyed. So by the time that Wakanda is being attacked, it's too late to do anything except battle them and hopefully stop Thanos from getting the stone.
 
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Brett_B

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The counterpoint to that is that if they sacrificed Vision and tore the stone off his head, that would have saved the people fighting for Wakanda. However, I think by that point, Thanos' forces would have kept their attack up even if the stone was destroyed. So by the time that Wakanda is being attacked, it's too late to do anything except battle them and hopefully stop Thanos from getting the stone.
I only saw the movie once so I may be a little hazy on exact points, but I thought Vision was willing to sacrifice himself only to have T'Challa convincing him to allow his people to remove the stone and save him.

Also, at the time the procedure was taking place the armies had not arrived at Wakanda, so no one was actually fighting. Only the fight to save Vision.
 

TravisR

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I only saw the movie once so I may be a little hazy on exact points...
Me too so don't take anything I say as definitive. :)


Also, at the time the procedure was taking place the armies had not arrived at Wakanda, so no one was actually fighting. Only the fight to save Vision.
That's another good point. I think anything outside of tearing the stone out of Vision's head and handing it to Thanos would have resulted in some kind of death and destruction of the people defending Wakanda or any other place they tracked Vision down to. And if they give the stone to him, half the universe dies. If they destroy it, Thanos is going to be super pissed and probably wipe out alot of people out of spite.
 
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Michael Henry

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I guess I am not getting all of the speculation...(I have not read through this thread - so take it easy on me)

Thanos is wearing the ultimate reset button - the next move will be getting the gauntlet away from him and using it to put things back to how they were - but probably with heavy ramifications...
 

Sean Bryan

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My reference to Thor’s corney line from Ragnarok last night was initially just in fun. But thinking further about the question, I feel that it actually still holds to the situation and the decision in Wakanda.

Vision was willing to sacrifice himself. The Avengers new that they may have to kill him by destroying it. They also had the understanding that Wanda was the only one who could destroy it since her power came from it. But they also felt that if they could safely remove it from Vision without killing him that would be the preferable way to go.

They had no intention of ever letting Thanos get his hands on it. If it came to that, the plan was for Wanda to destroy it (and sacrifice Vision in the process). Keep in mind, Wanda is clearly in love with Vision. Thinking that she would be okay with just killing him outright, preemptively really doesn’t track with that. It wouldn’t be Steve, or T’Challa, or anyone else killing him but would be her.

So they decided to try to remove it first and attempted to buy as much time as they could to give Vision a chance. Plus, as I said, I don’t believe Wanda would have agreed to kill him preemptively. And that would only ever be her decision, no matter what anyone else decided.

If it came down to the Stone falling into enemy hands, then love and idealism would have to take a back seat to what is necessary. They weren’t risking the lives of everyone in the Universe over one “person”, because the plan was to sacrifice him if it came to that. The lives they were putting at risk to give Vision a chance were their own to risk. Heroes and honorable warriors.
1CE6BFCB-28DA-46C6-B255-743103D0C0B0.gif


Ultimately their plan worked as they intended, at least the contingency plan of Wanda having to sacrifice Vision because it did come to that. And even in that moment when it was clear that it was what had to be done, it was still extremely difficult for Wanda to choose to kill the person she loved.

Of couse, unbeknownst to them their resistance was all in vain. Once Thanos got the Time Stone on Titan it was all over. Having the time stone meant that no matter what they did, he could undo it and get what he wanted. If only Thor went for the head.
 
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TravisR

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The new trailer for Ant-Man and The Wasp will be out tomorrow.

As far as “teasers for trailers” go, this one is kinda fun.

Total guess but I think they're actually microscopically somewhere in Avengers and you'll see a scene from their POV in Ant-Man And Wasp. They could even do something with the post credits scenes.
 
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