Avengers: Infinity War -- Spoilers Thread

Jake Lipson

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My issue with what you posted over there about Spider-Man was mostly the way you worded it.
I would, again, like to apologize for that. I worded it that way intending to refer to the ending for the character, as in Spider-Man's ending or Black Widow's ending or Thanos's ending or fill-in-the-blank-with-any-name's ending. Each character has a beginning point and an ending point in the story, regardless of what the content of that endpoint is. (Ex: Pepper's ending would be that she's yelling at Tony to get back to her, because she doesn't feature in the story at all after that point.)

So, I worded it in that way such as to not say anything about the content of the ending at all, or at least that was the logic in my head when I wrote it. In retrospect, I can see how it may have come off in another way, but that could not have been further from my intention. I wrote it that way trying to make my point while avoiding the spoiler and would never intentionally put a genuine spoiler unmarked in a thread like that. But if you hadn't seen the movie yet, I understand now how it could read as though I had done so. By the time anyone raised an issue about it, my editing window had already closed so I couldn't change the wording.

I also think it was a natural extension of the conversation going on in the thread at the time about Marvel and Sony's relationship. However, I will agree that in hindsight it was better placed here, which is why I brought it up here in the post that you quoted.

I was thinking the same thing about Gamora being “in charge”
I think this is more about Gamora representing his emotional side. In a way, she is "in charge of" his emotions because she is one of the only things that he gets emotional about -- which is, of course, why she was the one who needed to die for him to get the soul stone.

his character has never been a main character in any of the movies and has essentially made only cameo appearances. Then he gets another cameo and is immediately erased from the whole Marvel Universe.
I don't think I would categorize all of his MCU appearances as cameos (he got quite a lot to do in The Winter Soldier especially), but it definitely is more of a showy supporting role. I'm not really even sure what a Nick Fury-fronted movie would be like. Since his secrets have secrets and must maintain a certain mystique, and we have to get to know our protagonists extremely well, he does seem to fit better in the supporting lane. It was also maybe a nice callback to Iron Man ten years ago where he only appeared in the post-credits tag. Or maybe that's just a coincidence.

I didn’t realize right away that the s.o.s. Was going to Captain Marvel.
I didn't recognize the logo either because I don't read comics, but assumed it was going to her because we already know that Samuel L. Jackson will be appearing in her movie. Which makes me wonder if the Russos shot this or whether it was don on the set of Captain Marvel by that film's directors. I know James Gunn shot the scene that is the tag on Thor: The Dark World as part of filming Guardians of the Galaxy. Although, Captain Marvel only started filming recently, so it was probably the Russos.

If an actor appears only in the tag like that, for a tiny cameo, I wonder whether or not it counts on their deal with Marvel for X number of films as one of their contractual obligations, or not, due to the brevity of it.

Another question: Captain Marvel takes place in the '90s, which predates anything seen in the MCU so far except for the '80s opening sequences to the two Guardians films. If Nick Fury knows about her, and she has existed since the '90s, how come he's only paging her now? There will need to be a logical explanation in-universe for why she didn't help out with any of the other times that the world was in danger.

The answer is that Marvel has been busy establishing other properties and hasn't gotten to her until now, but that acknowledges that these are films and that Marvel has such a thing as a production schedule.

Within the world of the story, in which they are in real life and they don't know they're in movies, this will need to be addressed and explained. Because, you know, he could've paged her when Loki tried to take over Earth. Or any number of other times over the past decade's worth of films. But he didn't. The need now is obviously dire, but it was also dire earlier, so why only call her now? Is the pager a phone-a-friend lifeline that you use up after one call? (I'm kidding here, but even if it were one-and-done, he had no way of knowing that each prior threat wasn't worth using it for.) And what has she been doing instead as a character all this time?
 
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Brett_B

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Having now seen the Ant-Man and the Wasp trailer, and building off of my two theories earlier in this thread, here is my final theory (for now):
  • Avengers 4 will obviously deal with the aftermath of the Snap. It may take place a few years later for reasons that will be made clear below.
  • If you look at who is left behind, each of them possesses interesting information: they know exactly where certain infinity stones were before Thanos got them:
    • Tony, Cap, Black Widow, Hulk, Thor, and Hawkeye know where in the past the space stone (the Tesseract) and the mind stone (Loki's staff) were: the Battle of NY. At this time, Thanos had "given" Loki the staff in order to retrieve the Tesseract, so for a small portion of time, the heroes know where these stones are and they aren't in Thanos' possession.
    • Rocket knows that in the past, Peter got the power stone on some planet. He probably knows the exact location. At this point in time, it is not in Thanos' possession and it is not in Ronan's possession, either.
    • Thor knows that in the past, the reality stone (the aether) is hidden away at a location that could be reached through a portal (the one Jane went through). At this point, the aether has not "infected" Jane, Thanos doesns't have it, and neither does Malakith.
    • Wong (I have to assume for purpose of this theory that he's still alive) knows that in the past, the time stone is safely kept at in the Eye of Agamotto at Kamar-Taj. At this point in time, it's nominally guarded by the Ancient One and the rest of the Order, but Thanos doesn't have it.
    • Nebula knows exactly where in the past the soul stone is, because Gamora told her.
  • So, because those alive know when and where to go, the plan will be to gather the stones before Thanos.
  • Maybe instead simply of traveling back in time, the team will use the quantum realm to travel through the multiverse AND through time. Maybe the Wasp dies as part of the Snap, leaving behind a highly motivated Pym and Lang. Pym works with Tony and Shuri to find a way to travel back to the key points in time. If you've seen the "Timescape" episode of Star Trek TNG where some of the crew use modified emergency transporter armbands to create pockets of time around themselves so they can move freely through a temporal distortion, maybe Pym, Tony, and Shuri do something like that--creating pockets of their dimension while they travel through the multiverse.
  • Because the team is affecting an alternate universe, they don't have to worry about causality in the strict sense. However, what they are doing in the alternate universe will of course change its future. Peter Quill will never get the power stone, so the Guardians will never form. Maybe even this means Ego eventually wipes out the universe.
  • The team will have to move fast and potentially try to get each stone simultaneously, because Thanos will quickly figure out what is happening. Everyone will split up into smaller groups. Captain Marvel will join Rocket or Thor to go after the "off-world" stones. Perhaps Doctor Strange already sent his consciousness back in time/through realities to communicate with the Ancient One. When the team (Wong?) gets there, she simply hands it over.
  • At some point, a sacrifice will need to be made for the soul stone. Tony will sacrifice Cap, or vice versa (but I'm betting on Tony sacrificing Cap).
  • All of this will allow the characters (and the fans) to revisit key moments in the previous films.
I had that same theory posted back on page 7 (in spoilers).

In regards to the sacrifice for the soul stone, that is where I think we will see Gamora return.
 

Sam Favate

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Another question: Captain Marvel takes place in the '90s, which predates anything seen in the MCU so far except for the '80s opening sequences to the two Guardians films.


And the Ant-Man sequence from 1989 with Hank Pym, Howard Stark and Peggy Carter.
And the 1991 flashback in Civil War of the Winter Soldier and Tony's parents.
And the 1992 opening of Black Panther.

I think there are a lot of people who stuck around for the post-credit scene who have no idea who or what is on that pager. Instead of setting up the next film with some excitement for what is coming (like most of us felt), the scene ends with a big "Huh?" for most of the audience.
 

TJPC

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Isn’t a pager a device from the 90’s? And why did Tony Stark call Captain America on the old Motorola flip phone?
 

Sean Bryan

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I think there are a lot of people who stuck around for the post-credit scene who have no idea who or what is on that pager. Instead of setting up the next film with some excitement for what is coming (like most of us felt), the scene ends with a big "Huh?" for most of the audience.
They could have followed it up with this.

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Sean Bryan

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Isn’t a pager a device from the 90’s? And why did Tony Stark call Captain America on the old Motorola flip phone?
The Captain Marvel movie, in theaters next March, is set in the 90’s. So that is when whatever relationship that exists between Fury and her will have been established.

The phone Tony had to call Steve is the phone that Steve sent to him via FedEx at the end of Civil War (Stan Lee was the courier). Steve was a fugitive and only needed to give Tony something that could be used in an emergency to call him (Cap put a number in there at which he could be reached).
 
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Jake Lipson

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And the Ant-Man sequence from 1989 with Hank Pym, Howard Stark and Peggy Carter. And the 1991 flashback in Civil War of the Winter Soldier and Tony's parents. And the 1992 opening of Black Panther.
You're right, of course. Don't know how I forgot to list those. Brain freeze.

But my overall point still stands. Fury could've called in Captain Marvel at any time between the '90s and now and only did it this one time, despite an unusually high number of potentially world-ending events where she could have been helpful. Her movie will have to give some explanation as to why she has not been seen before, if she has existed since the '90s.
 

Sean Bryan

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You're right, of course. Don't know how I forgot to list those. Brain freeze.

But my overall point still stands. Fury could've called in Captain Marvel at any time between the '90s and now and only did it this one time, despite an unusually high number of potentially world-ending events where she could have been helpful. Her movie will have to give some explanation as to why she has not been seen before, if she has existed since the '90s.
Yes, that’ll have to be explained in Captain Marvel.

And I do expect it to be explained there, so I wouldn’t worry too much about it now. That answer will come.
 
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Sean Bryan

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Joe Russo has confirmed that the scene between Thanos and “young” Gamora after the snap takes place within the Soul Stone.

Yeah it’s- it’s implied it’s the soul stone. It’s all orange around, then he’s inside the stone with the amount of power that it took to snap his fingers- he has this out of body experience with Gamora.

So she’s there?

She is in fact, yes. It was an attempt on our part - because we don’t like two-dimensional roles or three-dimensional villains - every villain is a hero in their own story and as insane and psychotic and brutal and violent as Thanos is, he’s a more complex villain if you go on a journey with him emotionally. He does care about things and it is complicated for him to execute his plan and it cost him something.

He said at the end “It cost him everything” and that it was the only thing he loved which was Gamora which is why we put him back with her at the end. I just want to reiterate with the audience that he does feel true emotion even though he is a monster.
 
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NeilO

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If the person receiving the stone has to make the sacrifice, then I'd be more worried about Pepper than Steve, although Tony wouldn't be willing to give her up. Also worth noting is that if Steve goes for the Soul Stone, he will meet Red Skull again.
That is why I think Steve has to be there. That seems too good an opportunity to pass up.
 
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Chris Will

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And the Ant-Man sequence from 1989 with Hank Pym, Howard Stark and Peggy Carter.
And the 1991 flashback in Civil War of the Winter Soldier and Tony's parents.
And the 1992 opening of Black Panther.

I think there are a lot of people who stuck around for the post-credit scene who have no idea who or what is on that pager. Instead of setting up the next film with some excitement for what is coming (like most of us felt), the scene ends with a big "Huh?" for most of the audience.
You all left the biggest one off your list: The first Captain America movie takes place in the early '40s.
 
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Josh Dial

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The whole problem with Thanos's plan? That's now how populations work. At all. Read more, blue dude.
That's not how population works on Earth. It's apparently how it worked (so far) on Gamora's planet.
 

Jake Lipson

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I think we should also note that the Secovia Accords are still in effect. By not arresting Steve on sight, Rhody guaranteed himself an arrest, too (unless perhaps William Hurt is among the disappeared.) In any case, once things return to normal, they've still got that law hanging over their heads, which needs to change.

Also...how was Spider-Man not in violation of the Accords in Homecoming?
 

Josh Dial

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Also...how was Spider-Man not in violation of the Accords in Homecoming?
I assume that because he was brought in by Tony as part of his 36-hour mandate to bring in Cap (in Civil War), that everything was on the up and up. Probably some sort of carve out or exception (also referenced in Civil War), or Tony "signed" or otherwise vouched for Peter (basically fudged the whole parental authority thing).
 

Jake Lipson

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I assume that because he was brought in by Tony as part of his 36-hour mandate to bring in Cap (in Civil War), that everything was on the up and up.
Well, yeah, in Civil War it was. But Peter did not sign the Accords, and was running around being a superhero in Homecoming with only Tony's extremely mild, distracted supervision. That seems like a plot hole to me. Just because he is a "friendly neighborhood" superhero as opposed to an Avenger doesn't exempt him from the law, particularly when a lot of the destruction in Homecoming was his fault.

Also, the UN committee didn't have time to authorize Tony, Bruce, or Strange to fight Thanos' minions either. Which demonstrates what makes the law so stupid, since supervillains won't wait for you to get government approval to fight before they attack. But still...

It would be very convenient for the Avengers as a whole if William Hurt was in the half of the population which Thanos snapped away. Just saying.
 
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