Avengers: Infinity War -- Spoilers Thread (1 Viewer)

[Robert Crawford]

I guess it depends on each planet. If you forget about the genocide, it seems like Thanos' planet is better off than it had been but that plan wouldn't work for Earth. On Earth, the rich will still own everything and give nothing to the poor. Slashing the population in half won't change that.

Thanos did state he would eliminate population including the rich and poor though which means some of the rich assets could filter down to the poor.

 

[TravisR]

Thanos did state he would eliminate population including the rich and poor though.

Thanos wasn't discriminating based on money but that doesn't change human greed. Half the population being dead would probably just convince the rich that they needed to be even greedier to make up for losing half of their market.

 

[Sean Bryan]

I think "The Mad Titan" surely has some sanity issues, along with ego, and a stubborn belief that HIS solution is right. Not the best mix for stepping back, abandoning a difficult course he has already committed to, and admitting there might be a better way.

Sometimes people want to jump to "plot hole" applying cold, disconnected, dispassionate Vulcan-like decision making logic to the actions of fictional characters (while also not having all of the information that applies to the fictional situation). Characters who, if you buy into the story being told wouldn't be applying "movie watcher quarterback" logic any more than most real people would because they have personalities, obsessions, phobias, bad judgement, sanity issues, etc... And real people don't always make the best or most logical choices. That's not a hole, that's just human behavior. It's like in a horror movie when the viewer at home says "Oh, man! I woulda just done this or that" when in reality people in unexpected horrific situations often behave so bizarrely because they can't process that something like that is actually happening.

Thanos had been been committed to his "solution" for "saving" the universe for a long time before he had any Infinity Stones. He was exiled by his people for presenting them with this "mad" solution to a problem they may not have even acknowledged as being real. When their world eventually fell, he felt vindicated and it emotionally cemented Thanos's perspective on the matter so he committed to a course of bringing death to half the populations of every world he conquered in the long years after. He's neck deep in the blood he has already spilled in his quest to save the universe. I think to maintain that course and retain some degree of sanity he had to fully accept that this course of action was right and necessary. He's an amoral philosopher. He's convinced his solution was necessary and he's emotionally committed to achieving his goal. Once he got the means to actually accomplish that goal, I don't see him just stepping back and changing course.

 

[TravisR]

I think "The Mad Titan" surely has some sanity issues, along with ego, and a stubborn belief that HIS solution is right. Not the best mix for stepping back, abandoning a difficult course he has already committed to, and admitting there might be a better way.

Sometimes people want to jump to "plot hole" applying cold, disconnected, dispassionate Vulcan-like decision making logic to the actions of fictional characters (while also not having all of the information that applies to the fictional situation). Characters who, if you buy into the story being told wouldn't be applying "movie watcher quarterback" logic any more than most real people would because they have personalities, obsessions, phobias, bad judgement, sanity issues, etc... And real people don't always make the best or most logical choices. That's not a hole, that's just human behavior.

Just to be clear, I'm not crying "Plot hole!" I'm only saying that Thanos' plan wouldn't really work as he intends on Earth and since he isn't an Earthling, it's perfectly reasonable that he wouldn't entirely understand human behavior or be able to anticipate how it would go down on every planet that he'll affect. And despite the hideousness of Thanos' plan and if you ignore the toll it would take on all people, it's possible that it could work on other planets.

 

[Carabimero]

Seeing the movie made me go straight to my Masterworks library...

The message Fury sent was to Captain Marvel, right?

Thanos did state he would eliminate population including the rich and poor though which means some of the rich assets could filter down to the poor.

I'm always talking about moral argument. Here's a great example. I was impressed with the arguments Thanos made, and especially that he had to make choices. He said he respected Stark. He said he liked Star Lord. He's more interesting to me than most heavies, I thought they did a good job with the dialogue pretty much all the way around.

One thought: If they'd just killed Iron Man or Cap it might have had more impact. Everybody knows that everybody can't be dead, and the only real way to fix it I see is to do what Thanos did to Vision: bring him back to life with the Time Stone.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

One thought: If they'd just killed Iron Man or Cap it might have had more impact.

I think it's likely that that will happen in the next film... one or both men will play the ultimate price in order to undo the rest of the damage done.

 

[Carabimero]

I think it's likely that that will happen in the next film... one or both men will play the ultimate price in order to undo the rest of the damage done.

You mean Star Lord's screw up...hahah....I have always disliked those GUARDIAN movies (I know I am in the microscopic minority) and I like Star Lord even less after this movie (I thought liking him less wasn't possible). In fairness, I liked the racoon and Thanos's daughter more after seeing INFINITY WAR.

 

[Josh Dial]

One thought: If they'd just killed Iron Man or Cap it might have had more impact. Everybody knows that everybody can't be dead...

This is the interesting thing about Thanos' stories in the comics (which used to be fewer and further between): unlike many comic book arcs, the Thanos stories are about Thanos. He amasses power, kills (sometimes en masse), and pursues sometimes extreme goals. His foul deeds often say more about his character (and his character growth) than the heroes' characters.

I can remember reading the original comic series back in the 1990s and thinking, "there's no way all of these characters stay dead." In the end, exactly how Thanos was defeated was really interesting and, at least to me, somewhat novel. It was also interesting to see how the "first" defeat (Thanos would seek, obtain, and lose the Gauntlet/absolute power a few times) would feed back into his future arcs. His losses always seem to be a variation on the same themes of nihilism and the meaning of life.

Thanos is one of my favourite Marvel characters.

 

[Sean Bryan]

Seeing the movie made me go straight to my Masterworks library...

View attachment 46028

The message Fury sent was to Captain Marvel, right?



I'm always talking about moral argument. Here's a great example. I was impressed with the arguments Thanos made, and especially that he had to make choices. He said he respected Stark. He said he liked Star Lord. He's more interesting to me than most heavies, I thought they did a good job with the dialogue pretty much all the way around.

One thought: If they'd just killed Iron Man or Cap it might have had more impact. Everybody knows that everybody can't be dead, and the only real way to fix it I see is to do what Thanos did to Vision: bring him back to life with the Time Stone.

Yes, Fury's distress call was to Captain Marvel. Though it is the modern incarnation, Carol Danvers, and not the original "Mar-vel".


For a scary moment I thought Tony was going to die. That image of him being impaled by Thanos' blade was something else and it definitely got one of the bigger reactions from the crowd, but it works better that he didn't die because he has to try to fix this nightmare.

And it wouldn't have worked for Cap to die in this one since his role in this movie was relatively minor. I think for a major death in a movie like this the character needs to factor into the main story more significantly, like Gamora did. This was the big fall of the heroes, and the big victory for Thanos, but there needs to be a comeback. I like what they are doing here in that the large cast has been whittled down so the focus in the next one can be more on the original six Avengers since it will be the close of that era and they can be the ones to bring their own era to an end. That's the one where one or more of those characters are likely to die permanent deaths.

 

[Sean Bryan]

You mean Star Lord's screw up...hahah....I have always disliked those GUARDIAN movies (I know I am in the microscopic minority) and I like Star Lord even less after this movie (I thought liking him less wasn't possible). In fairness, I liked the racoon and Thanos's daughter more after seeing INFINITY WAR.

Star-Lord did screw up, but it came from a place of pure emotion, just as Tony was going to become a murderer in Civil War when he discovered the murderer of his parents was standing right in front of him. No logic there, just good old human rage.

But you have to keep in mind that that was something that Strange would have seen coming and HE let it play out that way because he saw only one possible successful outcome out of the over 14 million futures he observed. No matter what they did, Thanos always won. 14 million times. But he saw the one time where they did defeat him and needed to see things play out that way. He could have prepared Quill for such horrible news if he thought it would have helped them win. But it apparently wouldn't have made a difference in the end. So in whatever way they can ultimately defeat Thanos, it involves them having to lose first.

 

[Carabimero]

Star-Lord did screw up, but it came from a place of pure emotion, just as Tony was going to become a murderer in Civil War when he discovered the murderer of his parents was standing right in front of him. No logic there, just good old human rage.

But you have to keep in mind that that was something that Strange would have seen coming and HE let it play out that way because he saw only one possible successful outcome out of the over 14 million futures he observed. No matter what they did, Thanos always won. 14 million times. But he saw the one time where they did defeat him and needed to see things play out that way. He could have prepared Quill for such horrible news if he thought it would have helped them win. But it apparently wouldn't have made a difference in the end. So in whatever way they can ultimately defeat Thanos, it involves them having to lose first.

I have nothing but admiration for this movie. Sure, I like to discuss alternate possibilities, what the writers could have done, but INFINITY WAR was created by master craftsmen in my opinion. If it breaks the $2 billion threshold, it deserves it.

I know the Ant Man/Wasp movie is set in the past, but what about Captain Marvel? Does that have causation between Avengers 3 and 4?

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I know the Ant Man/Wasp movie is set in the past, but what about Captain Marvel? Does that have causation between Avengers 3 and 4?

The Captain Marvel movie is primarily set in the 1990s, but I think it will also have hints as to Avengers 4, in the same way that "Captain America: The First Avenger" took place in the 1940s but also set up the MacGuffin for "Marvel's The Avengers" which followed immediately after.

 

[Sean Bryan]

Well, they are definitely doing a good job of sowing doubt about how things will turn out.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/adambvary/...ained-spoilers?utm_term=.mmOajB5Pa#.syeEomQ3E

This is a really good read, but it fills me with dread.

“As you're writing these things, you have to be fairly calculating and cold,” Christopher Markus told BuzzFeed News. “You know, I don't tear up every time I read it. But to see the characters fully rendered, and to see the actors’ faces processing that loss, it’s pretty profound.”

“That loss” consists of arguably the most brutal, devastating conclusion in a massively popular franchise movie ever. (And if the previous warnings weren't already clear, the rest of this story contains MAJOR SPOILERS.) After collecting all six Infinity Stones, cosmic villain Thanos (Josh Brolin) snaps his fingers and causes half the population of the universe to disintegrate into ash, including over a dozen of Marvel Studios’ most celebrated superheroes, like Black Panther (Chadwick Boseman), Spider-Man (Tom Holland), Doctor Strange (Benedict Cumberbatch), and almost all of the Guardians of the Galaxy. To say the ending has madepeople emotional is a bit like saying the movie made a lot of money on its opening weekend.

“It really seemed to be a gut punch to people in a way that I didn't fully [realize],” said Markus.

But what do all these deaths mean? Are these characters all really dead, or will they somehow return in the untitled Avengers movie that was filmed alongside Infinity War and is due to open a year from now? To answer these questions and more, BuzzFeed News grilled Markus and his writing partner Stephen McFeely, and got some surprising answers.

Infinity War and its sequel are based in part on the 1991 Infinity Gauntlet comic series by Jim Starlin. Thanos succeeds in his quest in that comic, and Markus and McFeely said that they and their main collaborators — directors Anthony and Joe Russo along with producer and Marvel Studios chief Kevin Feige — never seriously entertained the idea that their films wouldn’t also include Thanos’s apocalyptic snap of his fingers.

“This is the hero's journey for Thanos,” said McFeely. “By the end of the hero's journey, our main character, our protagonist — at least, in this case — gets what he wants.” At first the writers weren't quite sure when in the two films Thanos’s snap would come, until they ultimately realized that putting it at the climax of Infinity War would give that film its strongest ending.

“Even if the end is a tragedy, we wanted it to be definitive,” said Markus. “To say, ‘Oh my gosh, what's he going to do?! He's only got one [Infinity Stone] left! I wonder if he'll get the other one!’ That just seemed like ‘Tune in next week’ jerking around.”

If it seemed like many of the characters who died at the end of Infinity War also got the most screentime in Infinity War — and that several of the Marvel Cinematic Universe’s biggest characters, like Captain America (Chris Evans) and Black Widow (Scarlett Johansson), got short shrift — that was by design. “We had so many characters in movie 1, and we knew it was a two-movie conversation,” said McFeely. “Some characters were better served in movie 2 after this event. We were making some choices based on some characters we knew were going to leave us at the end of the first movie, so they got highlighted in the first movie. And some who were going to be in the second movie more maybe got less attention or less screentime [in Infinity War] — I'm thinking of Cap and Natasha, specifically. It's about the story we wanted to tell in movie 2, mostly.”

In Infinity War, Gamora’s knowledge of the whereabouts of the Soul Stone — the only missing Infinity Stone — leads her to make Star-Lord (Chris Pratt) promise to kill her should Thanos, her father, ever capture her. In the original script, when Thanos does take Gamora, Star-Lord ultimately can't bring himself to pull the trigger. But Gunn and Pratt both said he would.

“The more I think about it, the better it is that it got changed,” said McFeely. He pointed out that Thanos’s use of the Reality Stone to have Star-Lord’s gun fire bubbles instead allowed the screenwriters to include a callback to the moment later in the film. But more broadly, Star-Lord’s decision to kill the woman he loves tied in with Infinity War’s underlying theme that doing what you believe to be the right thing can come at a terrible personal cost.

“Thanos has that same choice later [to kill Gamora], and he chooses to do it and succeeds,” said McFeely. “Wanda has that same choice later [with Vision]. A lot of characters have really tough choices to make.”

“First of all, we would do it all over again,” said McFeely about their shocking decision to turn Black Panther to dust. “But remember, when we’re writing [Infinity War], and even shooting, there is no Black Panther movie. We don’t know it’s going to be so good, so effective, so resonant. And we had to treat all these characters the same. People who leave us [in Infinity War] are the leads of their own franchises. And Black Panther’s no different.”

Killing characters as major as Black Panther and Spider-Man also helped drive home for audiences just how immense Thanos’s victory was. “We wanted that thing that happens at the end of that movie to have as much impact as possible,” said Markus. “If you're very carefully getting rid of your supporting cast, then it does seem like you’re pulling your punch.”

As McFeely acknowledged, anyone paying attention to the historic success of Marvel Studios’ entire slate of films knows that several of the characters who died at the end of Infinity War front their own lucrative movie franchises. Prior to the release of Infinity War,Feige talked explicitly about the next Spider-Man movie. Gunn announced in 2017 that he was writing and directing Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3. And if there were no Black Panthersequel, the shareholders of Disney would likely revolt — not to mention the fans.

Because these characters are almost certainly returning for more movies down the line, audiences could come to regard the deaths in Infinity War cynically. But Markus and McFeely said they had to set aside that kind of thinking when writing Infinity War.

“We can’t make movies assuming you know how movies get made,” said McFeely. “We can just tell the best version of the story we can, and hopefully you are investing in that story while you’re in it, and you feel appropriate sadness or joy while you’re in it. We can’t account for having one step outside the movie theater while you’re watching it. We would be terrible storytellers if we did that.”


Understandably, Markus and McFeely chose their words carefully when talking about Avengers 4. But listening to them talk about how Infinity War’s deaths — including the more, er, traditional deaths of Loki (Tom Hiddleston), Heimdall (Idris Elba), Gamora (Zoe Saldana), and Vision (Paul Bettany) — will affect Avengers 4, it seems pretty clear characters won’t be resurrected good as new like they are in the comic, or at least without some great cost.

“[Avengers 4] doesn’t do what you think it does,” said Markus. “It is a different movie than you think it is.” Then he paused. “Also…[the deaths are] real. I just want to tell you it’s real, and the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will be able to move on to the next stage of grief.”

McFeely broke in. “Put it this way,” he said. “I think [Infinity War] is a fairly mature movie for a blockbuster. It’s got a lot of fun in it, obviously, but boy, it gets very mature. The second one is also mature. We’re going to own these choices, and hopefully surprise and delight you and get you invested. It’s by the same studio, the same filmmaking team. They were written at the same time, shot at the same time. They’re clearly connected, but they are definitely two different movies, one of which is dependent on what happened previous.”

“We broke your heart,” added Markus. “Now we're going to blow your mind!”

The post-credits scene in Infinity War features a disintegrating Nick Fury (Samuel L. Jackson) appearing to send an SOS to the as yet unseen Captain Marvel via a mysterious-looking pager — suggesting that the character, who will be played by Brie Larson, will perform a significant role in Avengers 4. According to Markus and McFeely, however, fans should also pay attention to what happens in the Captain Marvel movie opening in March 2019 — as well as in Ant-Man and the Wasp, opening in July this year, and starring Paul Rudd and Evangeline Lilly as the title characters.

“Put yourself in our positions two years ago,” said McFeely. “We’re looking at a blank wall, and it says Avengers 3, Ant-Man and [the] Wasp, Captain Marvel, Avengers 4. So there are four big shoeboxes, and we’re responsible for the bookends. As we’re going through deciding what we want to do, we have these two shoeboxes in the middle that you can either look at as burdens or opportunities.”

Other than “very small suggestions” from the Avengers team, McFeely emphasized that the filmmakers for Ant-Man and the Wasp and Captain Marvel “got to make exactly the movies they wanted.” But those movies will still be tied to the events in Avengers 4 in some meaningful ways.

“My hope is the conversation you and I will have a year from now, you’ll have a sense of the choices we’ve made over the course of an entire year of Marvel movies,” said McFeely. “There’s a relationship between them all.”

All of the original Avengers — Captain America, Black Widow, Thor (Chris Hemsworth), Hulk/Bruce Banner (Mark Ruffalo), and Iron Man (Robert Downey Jr.) — survived Infinity War, which only calls further attention to the total absence of the sixth member of their original team: Jeremy Renner’s Clint Barton, aka Hawkeye.

Don’t worry, however. Hawkeye will return!

“We like Hawkeye,” said Markus. “We like Hawkeye so much we gave him a really good story.” For what that story is, and how it could affect the fate of the MCU, we’ll have to wait until Avengers 4 opens in 2019.

 

[Josh Dial]

Great link, Sean. Thanks!

This quote from McFeely is great:

We can just tell the best version of the story we can, and hopefully you are investing in that story while you’re in it, and you feel appropriate sadness or joy while you’re in it. We can’t account for having one step outside the movie theater while you’re watching it. We would be terrible storytellers if we did that.
​

This quote captures--better than I ever could--some of the sentiments I've expressed in threads in the television section.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

“[Avengers 4] doesn’t do what you think it does,” said Markus. “It is a different movie than you think it is.” Then he paused. “Also…[the deaths are] real. I just want to tell you it’s real, and the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will be able to move on to the next stage of grief.”

I have no doubt that the deaths are real. I just don't think (most) of them are going to be permanent!

It does make sense though that the characters who were alive at the end of Infinity War took a backseat to the characters who died. Presumably the characters that died are going to stay dead for most of the movie, so the focus turns to the characters who are still living.

 

[JimmyO]

They're putting the best possible spin on what we know to be true - many of those deaths will be undone. As much as I know they'd like us to divorce ourselves from that reality for maximum emotional impact.

I'm too franchise savvy to fall for that one.

 

[Sean Bryan]

They're putting the best possible spin on what we know to be true - many of those deaths will be undone. As much as I know they'd like us to divorce ourselves from that reality for maximum emotional impact.

I'm too franchise savvy to fall for that one.

Right. There’s just no way they would be publicly saying “Well of course everyone who died in the Snap will be coming back” at this point in the movie’s lifecycle. Their intention is for audience members to sit with the impact of THIS story for a while. But I don’t think they are misleading in saying that whatever happens to resolve this will have to come at a great cost.

And more and more I’m starting to think that Gamora may be truly gone for good. I’m at least prepared for it it stick, even though I’d prefer for her to get a reprieve and can imagine ways in which that plays out.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Star-Lord did screw up, but it came from a place of pure emotion

I think it's important to note here that Doctor Strange saw all the futures, which means he also saw Peter screwing up, and he let him do it without intervening. I think this means he knew that it had to happen this way. As I've said before, I still think we are in the one scenario in which the Avengers ultimately win. Ultimately.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I think it's important to note here that Doctor Strange saw all the futures, which means he also saw Peter screwing up, and he let him do it without intervening. I think this means he knew that it had to happen this way. As I've said before, I still think we are in the one scenario in which the Avengers ultimately win. Ultimately.

As Strange stated to Stark, this is the only way.

 

[Sean Bryan]

As Strange stated to Stark, this is the only way.

Yep, They're in the endgame now.

I wonder if there might be a significant time gap between the end of Infinity War and when we join the next part of the story. I could see it picking up right where they left off. Steve and Nat regrouping in Wakanda, Stark and Nebula traveling back to Earth, etc.. But based on how it has been emphasized that they are two stories and not one arbitrarily cut in half, I could see the next part picking up a few years later. The set photos of RDJ from Avengers 4 do suggest that he is older. Hard to gauge based on that, but I think it may be a possibility.