Astonishing experience

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by DonJ, May 1, 2002.

  1. DonJ

    DonJ Second Unit

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    Today I went to Listen Up here in Denver. It was my first time ever listening to B&W speakers and I love it.
    First off I own a full set of Paradigms
    Monitor 9 L/R
    CC370 Center
    Mini Monitors Rear Surround
    PS 1000 sub bought before I knew about this web site
    I have listened to them a lot 200hr+ since I bought 2 months ago.
    Anyway I first listen to the B&W CDM9NT. When I walked in I thought these are pretty so I had the sales rep put in my Jazziz Percussion of fire this is the best recording I have EVER heard. Great depth and imagining so much that the rep said wow that conga is way over there as he pointed to the right front corner of the room. Which I thought was the same these speakers have great imagining but very little depth and little to no bass extension. Both my friend and I said. He said" well this room has an awful bass suck out right here" my thinking is" bad excuse you designed this room for critical testing so don't blame it on the room". At this same moment Dane my friend turn to me and said "these don’t sound as nearly as good as yours do". I agreed with him and we went on to the next room.
    This is where we found the B&W Nautilus 804 we put it in and wow the difference was huge it was night and day. Not only was the imaging great but bass extension and depth completely different for the CDM9NT I was amazed. I said “the imaging was greater that Paradigms plus its depth and bass were deeper. Now in saying that I fully believe that my Monitor 9's were VERY close but not quite so good. Saying that I'm running them on an H/K 320 receiver with Monster MC Speaker cable. Good yes great no. There set up was a pre/pro setup with much better cable. Could that have been the difference possibly but they sounded better to me at any rate.
    I asked to see the speaker that defines the B&W Company. He took us to the Nautilus 800 room. WOW they spent 25 big ones or G's on just the room and sound damping alone. It’s really weird to say something and just have it disappear. No echo at all. We plaid the same track' my jaw fell to the floor my only comparison is a set of Wilson that run about 20G's per pair and the B&W ripped them in two in my head. The music was astonishing the drums seemed to be coming from at least 5 feet from behind the wall. Imaging I could see all the musicians and there placement with the bass being full and deep I instantly fell in love I will have these one day the room also.
    All in all IMHO My monitor 9's at eight hundred a pair fair better that the CDM9NT in every way but esthetics they were beautiful but not for 3X's the price. The Nautilus 804 are better than My monitor 9's but to me not quite worth 4X's plus the price of them and the Studio 100's for a full grand less fully blow them out of the water. Nautilus 800 there is no other out there I will own these some day only being 26 years of age I have plenty of time to get there. Only problem I'm very impatient and want them NOW.
    [​IMG]
     
  2. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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    That's an interesting assessment, but you lost me when you said there was a night and day difference between the 9NT and the Nautilus 804. There is a difference, to be sure, but not that dramatic--must have been a room issue.

    Also, while you may prefer the sonic signature of the Studio 100 to the Nautilus, saying the Paradigm blows the B&W out of the water is a textbook example of extreme hyberbole.

    DJ
     
  3. DonJ

    DonJ Second Unit

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    Well IMHO the sound and imaging of the B&W was definitely not worth 1,500 hundred more and actually it didn’t sound nearly as good plain and simple. Not Hyperbole as you put it. I don’t insult your opinion don’t insult mine. Thank you
     
  4. James W. Johnson

    James W. Johnson Screenwriter

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    That's an interesting assessment, but you lost me when you said there was a night and day difference between the 9NT and the Nautilus 804.
    Paradigm blows the B&W out of the water.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Weird how everyone's tastes and views can vary so much![​IMG]
    I think Paradigm's are extremely over rated, I would rather have my shrill JBL S312s(see review thread) than the Monotor 9's.
     
  5. Martice

    Martice Screenwriter

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    Hi Don. Sounded like you had a hell of a visit to the audio store. Anyway, I think when it comes to comparing speakers, so much has to be taken into consideration before coming to a conclusion. Yes the room plays a major part in the overall performance of a speaker. The source and the amplification comes in second in my opinion and every thing else can and should be judged in a more personal environment (namely your house).

    What would be interesting to know is if the speakers shared the same wall with other speakers? How far away from the back and side walls the speakers were? What amplification the speakers used? What source player was used and how long you actually listened and how many different recordings you actually played to get a greater idea of each speakers character?

    I don't have a problem with your conclusion during your visit to the audio store but what I would find more interesting is a little more detail in how you came to the conclusions that you have. Especially if you're going to use terms like "blows away" to describe one speakers performance over another.
     
  6. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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    I'm not insulting your opinion, Don. We all have different preferences. I simply suggest that from what you described, an accurate comparison was not possible(different rooms[a biggie], different associated equipment, and different times of comparison[at least between the Studio 100 & Nautilus]).

    DJ
     
  7. Eric Sevigny

    Eric Sevigny Stunt Coordinator

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    To each his own I guess. I had a fairly different experience when I compared the B&Ws to the Paradigms.
    I haven't A/Bed the Monitor 9s to CDM9s but did quite a bit of that with the Paradigm CC370 and the B&W CDMC (at one point or another I did own those two). That's when I realized the reason for my displeasure with my system was the Paradigm center. The B&W CDMC was doing everything right, and better. I didn't sound boxy or closed-in like the Paradigm, and was a lot less shrill on high frequencies. But more importantly, it was a lot more natral sounding on vocals. I later observed similar traits comparing the Paradigm Monitor 3v2s and the CDM1 NTs. Those comparisons were done in the same room with a speaker switch at my local dealer. Can't remember what the electronics behind it was though.
    It should be said though that the B&Ws are priced quite a bit higher then the Paradigms [​IMG] I didn't get to compare them with any of the Paradigm Studios as my dealer wasn't selling them, stating that "In those prices, B&W was a lot better" (take that statement for what it's worth *cough* dealer-propaganda *cough*).
     
  8. DonJ

    DonJ Second Unit

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    When I listen to the Studio 100's they are on an H/K 520 and I listen to them often since my parents own them. Again it's on the same Monster MC Speaker cable. The CDM9NT were demoed on a Rotel pre/pro and amp. I didn’t ask which models they were sorry. And they did have other speakers in the room but the sales rep took 15 min or so just to place them until he was satisfied.

    For my personal ear as to what I hear and how it sounds. I am a musician, percussionist actually. Received a full scholarship to the Boston Music Conservatory for the study of rudimental percussion. I played with the Velvet Knights of Anaheim CA in ’93 and 7 time World Champion Cadets of Bergen County New Jersey in ’95. That was with DCI Drum and Bugle Corps World Champion ship. I also play trumpet and clarinet. I currently teach up and coming Drum Corps percussionist and play trumpet with a local jazz band The Sliders. Reason I for telling you this is I’m just letting you know where I come from musical and no I just haven’t stumbled across my love of music recently.

    In my day job I work in the technology field and know for fact that if you build your own equipment you will have better control over QA and you can offer you best prices to the public. I saw this analogy in another forum and it bothered me it was a comparison of a Ferrari 360 Modena and a Corvette Z06 saying that the Corvette was a good performer but if you really want to have get the Ferrari. Not true the Corvette will out perform the Ferrari in almost every category from, 0-60 and ¼ mile times to lateral G’ forces. But it looks better cost more and carries a fan following that HUGE so we say it’s the better car but if we said that we would be wrong. Not only that the Corvette can be had in the U.S. for 55 G’s and the 360 for 167G’s retail. Is it worth more than twice than Vette in my opinion no but I would still be one anyway. That’s what I mean in IMHO.

    Also I’m not putting B&W down I like there speakers but I think you can get more for your money else where until you get to the Nautilus 802 then there is no comparison.
     
  9. Larry B

    Larry B Screenwriter

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    DonJ:

    Out of curiosity, have you driven both a Corvette and a Ferrari?

    Larry
     
  10. Evan S

    Evan S Cinematographer

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  11. Cam S

    Cam S Screenwriter

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    Guys, this is HIS opinion on how a few speakers sounded TO HIM, that's all it is. If he likes a cheaper speaker over a pricier one, why try and say his comparisons are wrong and that he didn't do it right. If the audio store hadn't setup the room and anything else properly that's not his fault, that's the store's fault, so you can't start talking about speaker placement blah blah blah, because those factors are not in his control.

    I listened to various Paradigm Studio products and ended up buying the Reference Klipsch speakers instead, why, well because in MY MIND, and with MY EARS, they blew the Paradigms away.

    We all have our personal opinions on speakers and such, as well as different ears (their not all the same you know), so respect a PERSONAL opinion when one is given.
     
  12. Saurav

    Saurav Cinematographer

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    Well said.
     
  13. Eric Sevigny

    Eric Sevigny Stunt Coordinator

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    -Evan S
    I am fully aware of the fact that my dealer will push B&W over a speaker he doesn't have. I was only including that remark because I found it funny in a typical "I am the dealer, I know better then you"-way. That is NOT my opinion and I am NOT taking it as gospel, as I didn't even get to hear the Studios, please don't assume anything by what I placed in quotes other then that was what the dealer said. I did edit my message to reflect that, I hope. You can put down your flame-thrower [​IMG]
    As a matter of fact, I don't even own B&W or Paradigm anymore (except for my surrounds... I kept the Monitors 3v2s for those as they weren't that expensive). I do find it strange though that he would sell the whole Paradigm line except the Studios. Hmmm, guess markup on B&Ws are better then the Paradigms in Canada [​IMG]
     
  14. Bill Kane

    Bill Kane Screenwriter

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    FWIW a/c to my dealer, Paradigm's Studio Series is a separate franchise; last year, my dealer carried B&Ws and Paradigm Monitor; this year, he's added Studio.
     
  15. Kevin Deacon

    Kevin Deacon Second Unit

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    Sounds like its time for a double blind level matched listening test.
     
  16. Evan S

    Evan S Cinematographer

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    Eric, I meant no offense. Sorry if I came across as such. I am a proud Paradigm Studio ref owner and have never even heard B&W speakers.

    Auditioning speakers is the hardest thing any one of us can do seeing as the associated equipment is never the same dealer to dealer and most dealers don't carry all the lines you typically want to listen to.

    Saying that Brand A speaker blows away Brand B is one of the most ludicrous comments out there because there are price differences, room differences, accociated equipment differences. What may sound bright to someone in their setup can sound downright dull to another in theirs, so you really just have to get speakers that appeal to you physically, emotionally and sound great in your listening environment at your price point. If you can do that, you are ahead of the game and don't have to answer to nobody!
     
  17. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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    Cam,
    No one is saying he doesn't have a right to an opinion, it's just that the dealer doesn't carry Paradigms, so he was making a comparison to a B&W he was listening to at the dealer vs. his memory of how his or other Paradigms sound at a different time in a different location.
    That's not the best way to form an opinion, in my opinion.[​IMG]
    DJ
     
  18. Tyson

    Tyson Stunt Coordinator

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    While you were at listen up, it's too bad you didn't give an audition to the Dynaudio speakers, the Contour series in particular. IMHO, they are worth a listen, and are better speakers than the B&W's (more balanced, natural sound).

    Did you get your Paradigms at Cherry Creek Audio in Denver? They also carry the Dunlavy speaker brand - very much worth hearing - IMO, they are signifigantly better than the Nautilus series, while being of similar pricing.

    Of course, this past week I had an in-home demo of some VMPS speakers (the 626R bookshelf speakers and the Original subs w/carbon fiber woofer and Soundcoated interior), and in a very real sense, they have re-defined what I thought was possible from a pair of speakers. So much so that I plunked down the $$ for a pair of their RM-40's. Most other speakers I have heard sound slow and heavy handed in comparison. Oh yeah, and the VMPS sub produced some of the most amazing bass. . . So much so, that my SVS 16-46 is for sale (I was originally going to use the $$ to build a blueprint 1503 Sonosub, but I liked the VMPS sub quite a bit better than the 1503 sub I heard at ThomasW's over a month ago).
     
  19. Saurav

    Saurav Cinematographer

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  20. Tyson

    Tyson Stunt Coordinator

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    The 626R's are around $1600, I think. I demo'd them with my trusty Odyssey Stratos, nOrh CD-1 (tubed CD player) and ACA preamp. I always wondered why no-one made ribbon speakers, or planars, or stats, that were not bipolar radiators. The Neo mid unit in the 626's are right up there with the best planars/stats for purity of sound, and have the advantage of really great micro and macro dynamics. Oh yeah, and they will play friggin loud! I'm talking ear damaging loud. And that was with just one Neo panel per speaker. I can't imagine what the 40's will be able to do.

    From what I understand, the VMPS speakers don't match up too well with lower powered tube amps. But at 90db/1watt for the 626R's, or 92db/1watt for the 40's, I think you could get by with 30 or 40 tube watts.

    If you're not carefull, going down that high eff/tube road, you'll find yourself doing some DIY, and then you are truly lost :-D
     

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