1. Sign-up to become a member, and most of the ads you see will disappear. It only takes 30 seconds to sign up, so join the discussion today!
    Dismiss Notice

Arrow (Season 8)

Discussion in 'TV Shows' started by Adam Lenhardt, Jul 20, 2019.

Tags:
  1. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Director

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2001
    Messages:
    22,583
    Likes Received:
    8,067
    Trophy Points:
    9,110
    Location:
    Albany, NY
    The planted pilot for the spinoff wasn't bad. The duality of Mia's memories with the original Earth-1 timeline and now the new Earth-Prime timeline gives the character more complexity. Instead of being the angry young girl with the huge chip on her shoulder, she's the privileged daughter of Star City's biggest hero. This version of Mia can draw on that other version of herself, without being consumed with that Mia's hangups.

    I do wish there'd been a line about her doing some kind of intensive exercise as a hobby. With the memories back, I can believe that she'd have all of her training back and even her muscle memory back. But it doesn't explain how she has the same strength and stamina as the version of her that was a street fighter for years.

    I'm glad that Oliver's sacrifice resulted in two decades of peace and prosperity for his city, but I still wish this wasn't set in 2040. Not only does it make crossovers more difficult if the show gets picked up to series, but it makes everything happening in the other shows essentially a prequel to this.

    Dinah Drake does nothing for me as a character. She was more tolerable here than most of her run on the main show, though. And the thing with her being erased from the Earth-Prime timeline and deposited in 2040 with all of her Earth-1 memories is interesting.

    Black Siren is a fun character, but making her too heroic robs her of a lot of what made her interesting. If this goes to series, they'll have to make sure that the character doesn't lose her edge.

    I expected them to recruit at least one new Canary in the planted pilot, but I'm glad they didn't. If the show does get picked up, they can take their time and cast it right.

    William seems to be a MacGuffin in this story, and getting him back will probably be Mia's first arc if the spinoff gets picked up.

    It was a bit weird for this episode to reference events from the series finale that we haven't seen yet.
     
    DavidJ likes this.
  2. DavidJ

    DavidJ Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Messages:
    3,990
    Likes Received:
    710
    Trophy Points:
    4,110
    Real Name:
    David
    We kind of expected it to be bad but we were pleasantly surprised.
     
    Adam Lenhardt likes this.
  3. NeilO

    NeilO Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,691
    Likes Received:
    286
    Trophy Points:
    4,110
    I was disappointed with the final scene there. Though will the evil memories be enough to make JJ evil or will he struggle against his other side? I really hope it isn't so easy to make him a villain here.
     
    DavidJ likes this.
  4. Gary Seven

    Gary Seven Grand Poo Pah

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,142
    Likes Received:
    484
    Trophy Points:
    1,610
    Location:
    Lake Worth, Florida
    Real Name:
    Gaston
    Sorry, I thought it was pretty lame with lazy writing. Bringing both GA and the villain in with some sort of memory revival was cheap and lame. I went with it for the Monitor but to have Cisco invent something that does the same thing was too easy and unimaginative. After this episode next episode, that's it for me. I grow weary of CW becoming Lifetime for teens.
     
  5. Message #65 of 85 Jan 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
    Garysb

    Garysb Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Messages:
    3,108
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Trophy Points:
    4,110
    I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought i would. I have a problem with the restored memories changing who the people are. They are playing it like the restored memories are who they really are and the life they have been living since 2020 is false. That is just not true. JJ is going become evil because in another reality he felt neglected by his father? Why wouldn't he think how lucky that didn't happen and I had a great relationship with my Dad. I guess Connor will become a hero instead of a drug addict / slacker when he gets his memories back and remembers how Diggle never gave up on him in a reality that didn't happen. It seems like they will eventually restore everyone's memory and they will be as they were for the last two seasons of Arrow only the city will be nicer.

    I noticed on this and the other shows that have come back that the people whose memories are restored by J'onn J'onzz remember both pre and post crisis but the Paragons only remember how thing were. So Supergirl doesn't remember a world where she and Lex were pals who worked together etc.

    The pilot takes place right after Oliver's funeral per dialogue in the episode but Mia was seen in the finale pictures at the funeral. So is Mia going to ask Laurel to take her back in time next week so she can attend the funeral?
     
  6. Message #66 of 85 Jan 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
    Garysb

    Garysb Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Messages:
    3,108
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Trophy Points:
    4,110
  7. Thomas Newton

    Thomas Newton Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 1999
    Messages:
    1,953
    Likes Received:
    295
    Trophy Points:
    1,610
    Real Name:
    Thomas Newton
    Presumably anyone who was present at the Dawn of Time when the multiverse rebooted kept their original memories. This would include the Paragons, the Spectre, the Anti-Monitor, and maybe supernatural characters who did not appear on-screen. (Some supernatural characters might have knowledge of the old multiverse even if they weren't present at the Dawn of Time. E.g., Lucifer (the Devil), or the Archangel Michael.)

    This doesn't really explain how they could be part of history in the new multiverse, without having memories of it. But then, time travel stories are often inconsistent when you look closely at them.
     
  8. MishaLauenstein

    MishaLauenstein Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    710
    Likes Received:
    57
    Trophy Points:
    610
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Real Name:
    Misha Lauenstein
    The weird one is Laurel. This is clearly Earth-2 Laurel. Where was she hiding when the multiverse was rebooted that saved her from getting rebooted? Did the monitor hide her somewhere in a pocket dimension? And if so, is there an Earth-Prime Laurel somewhere?
     
  9. David Weicker

    David Weicker Producer

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    3,388
    Likes Received:
    1,795
    Trophy Points:
    4,110
    Real Name:
    David
    Didn’t Laurel mention J’onn J’onzz, and that Cisco developed the memory restorer? Couldn’t one of those put her back?
     
  10. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Director

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2001
    Messages:
    22,583
    Likes Received:
    8,067
    Trophy Points:
    9,110
    Location:
    Albany, NY
    It appears that the Monitor basically granted wishes to the people who had aided him in his mission, and that those wishes helped shape the form of Earth-Prime. Given that, it stands to reason that Earth-2 Laurel would be the one to survive the merge, especially since she was on one of the component Earths that were consolidated into Earth-Prime.

    I'm guessing that the Martian Manhunter restored her memories like he did all of the other main characters post-Crisis.
     
  11. Message #71 of 85 Jan 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
    Garysb

    Garysb Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Messages:
    3,108
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Trophy Points:
    4,110
    Wondering how Mia being at Oliver's funeral on the Arrow finale is going to fit in with the backdoor pilot. Dinah and presumably Laurel in the backdoor pilot are from after the funeral. Mia at the beginning of the pilot has no memory of what we had to sit through the last 2 seasons of Arrow as the year 2040 nor does she remember meeting her father. Is the Mia at the funeral somehow precrisis Mia even though it takes place after crisis. I thought maybe Sara took her back in the Waverider but with the cliffhanger at the end of the pilot it wouldn't make sense for her to take off for a trip to the past.
     
  12. MishaLauenstein

    MishaLauenstein Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    710
    Likes Received:
    57
    Trophy Points:
    610
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Real Name:
    Misha Lauenstein
    That's kind of an F-U to Earth 1 Laurel, isn't it? "We're keeping the bad one."
     
  13. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Director

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2001
    Messages:
    22,583
    Likes Received:
    8,067
    Trophy Points:
    9,110
    Location:
    Albany, NY
    Well, the difference is that the bad one earned her spot by working for the Monitor, while the Earth-1 Laurel was... dead already.
     
    David Weicker likes this.
  14. Todd J Moore

    Todd J Moore Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    474
    Trophy Points:
    610
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    Real Name:
    Todd Moore
    I doubt I'll watch this if it gets picked up. The manufactured drama of these CW shows has become tiresome. I'll finish Arrow out this week but I think I'm bowing out of all of these shows. This nonsense doesn't happen on the Marvel shows thank goodness.
     
  15. Message #75 of 85 Jan 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
    Garysb

    Garysb Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Messages:
    3,108
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Trophy Points:
    4,110
    Well until the last 10 minutes I was disappointed. The last 10 were great.
    For me the series ended with the last episode before Crisis. Since then its been a long trudge to get to the finale episode. It's been more like a long epilogue. I believe they killed Oliver too soon. If Oliver died during the first 40 minutes of the final episode and then they ended with the last 10 minutes from the actual season finale that would have been epic.

    Why does everyone who had been dead know that they had been dead? Martian Manhunter been zooming around? Laurel's magic ring? Shouldn't Sara have been over whelmed with joy that her Dad was alive again?
     
    DavidJ likes this.
  16. David Weicker

    David Weicker Producer

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    3,388
    Likes Received:
    1,795
    Trophy Points:
    4,110
    Real Name:
    David
    I thought it was a terrific episode.

    Maybe it was one long epilogue, but I like those. Way way too many shows stiff the audience with some rushed, half-assed finale. These are people I've spent the last eight years with, and I wanted lots of conversations and lots of good-byes. They earned the right to actually talk to each other.
     
  17. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Director

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2001
    Messages:
    22,583
    Likes Received:
    8,067
    Trophy Points:
    9,110
    Location:
    Albany, NY
    The whole eighth season was pretty much a series finale, so from that standpoint it's appropriate that the actual series finale was more of an epilogue than a finale.

    I was pretty happy with the episode. They did a great job recreating the feel of the first season with the flashbacks to the first name on his father's list that he decided not to kill. Both with the brutality of the action sequences, and the visual looks of both Oliver and Diggle.

    With the exception of Manu Bennett as Slade Wilson (aside from manipulated archival footage), all of the characters who were important to Oliver's journey were back for the finale, including some who hadn't been available for episodes earlier in the season. And the finale did a good job of showing the path that most of them would be on.

    In particular, the episode paid off the longtime speculation that John Diggle was actually destined to be the John Stewart Green Lantern. It opens a lot of interesting possibilities: Since him and Lyla moved to Metropolis, will he appear on the "Superman & Lois" series? Since he got the Green Lantern ring, will he hop over to the upcoming HBO Max Green Lantern series? I know the character will appear later this season on "The Flash", so it's not like the "Arrow" supporting cast disappears from the Arrowverse now that their show is over.

    Chronologically, this episode is a bit complicated, since it takes place after last week's planted spinoff pilot for Mia but before last week's planted spinoff pilot for Laurel and Dinah.

    The finale actually addressed Misha's question about why Earth-2 Laurel instead of Earth-1 Laurel. From a plot standpoint, the death of the original Laurel was a formative event for Oliver, and the formative events seem to have been preserved in the new timeline. From an emotional standpoint, it gave us that wonderful moment between Quentin and Earth-2 Laurel at the police station.

    The ending was a bit more mysterious than I expected, with Oliver and Felicity reunited and granted their happily ever after, but the exact nature of the reality that reunion occurred in left unspecified. It could be the paradise dimension from the "Crisis" comic book, or it could be an actual afterlife -- heaven. I kind of like that ambiguity.
     
    DavidJ likes this.
  18. Message #78 of 85 Jan 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
    NeilO

    NeilO Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,691
    Likes Received:
    286
    Trophy Points:
    4,110
    I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with Green Lantern.

    The timing for Mia, Laurel and Dinah was quite confusing. From the previous episode I thought Dinah just appeared in 2040 immediately post-Crisis and Laurel was given a ride, but it looks like they didn't do that yet,

    The station I was watching thought that it ended earlier and had a promo for Black-ish playing at the same time as the second to last minute of the episode. No idea what was being said by Oliver and Felicity. I guess I'll have to see that part streaming.

    Here is an article that may be of interest. I haven't read it yet.
    https://www.cbr.com/arrow-producers-earth-prime-character-returns/

    Just read this from the article about which Laurel was brought back:
     
  19. Message #79 of 85 Jan 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
    Garysb

    Garysb Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Messages:
    3,108
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Trophy Points:
    4,110
    Guggenheim also said this in TVline article

    WHY WASN’T THERE MORE FELICITY IN THE FINALE?
    Though Felicity and Olicity fans had to be thrilled to get so much more than a walk into the cosmic sunset, Oliver’s love almost was involved in the “new” flashbacks, as well. “The original plan was for it to be something with Oliver, Felicity and Diggle, probably circa right after Episode 114, when Felicity was sort of brought into the circle of trust,” says Guggenheim. “The problem was that Emily was only available to us for two days. If we had a third day with her we would have been able to tell that story [but] once that didn’t materialize, we were like, ‘Well, our backup plan is do something circa [Episode] 105, post-105, after Oliver and Diggle have started working together,’ and just tell a piece of the story you didn’t see, which is … like Diggle says later… the ‘proof of concept,’ what that relationship could be.”

    It would have been nice to see early funny Felicity again in a new scene with Oliver and Diggle. OTA forever.
     
    NeilO likes this.
  20. Sam Favate

    Sam Favate Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    9,067
    Likes Received:
    4,311
    Trophy Points:
    9,110
    Real Name:
    Sam Favate
    I liked the finale, and I agree the last 10 minutes were the best. A few things bothered me: It's incomprehensible that Felicity wouldn't immediately want to meet Mia. She would have shoved everyone aside to get to her. Also, if the producers' reason for bringing back Earth-2 Laurel instead of the Laurel Oliver knew his entire life (and whose death he blamed himself for) is because of the pending spinoff, then that's the wrong reason. Oliver knew and loved his Laurel for 30+ years; he knew the Earth-2 Laurel for 2 very contentious years. It strains credibility. The stuff with the kidnapping of William seemed like filler. Might be the easiest puzzle they've ever solved. Also, Earth-2 Laurel killed Dinah's partner in cold blood and Dinah and she are friends? Those are the kind of grudges that don't go away.

    But the rest was lovely. The funeral, with so many characters returning from the entire series, was very satisfying. Did Felicity go to the afterlife with Oliver? Or to that other plain of existence where the Spectre does his business?

    I'll miss Arrow. It got convoluted sometimes and it could be formulaic like the other CW shows, but when it was at its best it was very very good. Stephen Amell is probably the best leading actor in any of these shows and his presence will be missed most of all. I hope we see him again.
     

Share This Page