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Are we Spoiled? (1 Viewer)

TravisR

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That's it. They became collectors when DVDs started coming out. Not everyone knows collectors who have a warehouse of 3/4 inch tapes of every network broadcast dating back to the 1970's and 16mm prints for everything else.
 

RickER

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I never wanted to keep most shows on tape. I had used Fantastic Journey as an example of something i wish i had taped to keep. But for me the problem was that it was edited, and the Sci-Fi channel is bad about putting commercial breaks where they dont belong. Yea, you can hit the pause, if you knew when it was coming. But if i didnt get a clean pause it made me mad, and would break the flow of the story if you got 5 seconds of a laxative commercial. Now as far as story edits done by the stations, or networks, sometimes they were so bad you could see and hear the start of something that was cut out. Now days they are so good at editing, like on Trek, that if you didnt know it by heart you wouldnt know stuff was missing.
 

george kaplan

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Well a lot of it is age. I wasn't born when I Love Lucy was airing, and growing up, I watched it in reruns before their were vcrs. I was only 16 when WKRP first aired, and I didn't even own a vcr.

Post graduate school when I could afford things like LDs, I did buy that and began collecting. But at that point, there wasn't a ton of great tv on that I wanted to keep, and I was never enamoured of vhs, since the tapes would break or whatever.

Plus I will admit that I was not prescient enough to realize that unedited versions of WKRP would never come out because a studio was too frickin cheap to obtain the rights (SNL is just as music intensive, but they've somehow managed to do that one).
 

Gary OS

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Well, while I'm sure you aren't referencing me seeing as how I've gone over this myself on a couple of occasions, I'll still answer.

I was born in '65 and came from a divorced family. My mom and I lived on very limited means as she worked her butt off in the 70's to keep a roof over our heads. In the early 80's when vcr's really hit the market my family flat out wasn't in a position to afford one, and even after we finally got one I sure as heck couldn't afford tapes to archive things. On top of that, my step father had first dibs on our one tv and I wasn't allowed to tape just anything I wanted. He was one of those guys who didn't get into older shows (the 50's and 60's things I liked even as a young teen) so I really had no shot at archiving.

Once I left home (after two years in a community college) and went out of state to college I again had no shot at archiving while living in a dorm room. Just wasn't going to happen. I married right out of college and my wife and I used cheap WalMart patio chairs for living room furniture. We had nothing other than a little b&w used tv for the first few years of marriage. I wasn't in any position to start archiving anything until the mid-90's and by then a baby was on the way and once more finances made it impossible to engage in the hobby Hank has shared with us. And let's not be naive about it. What Hank and others here are talking about was very expensive! Unless you got things right off the tv you owned, any amount of trading and or pure buying from collectors was never a cheap hobby.

So I hope people will understand that it comes off very poorly to me when I read these posts where people act like it should have been no big deal for me to have all these old shows I want. Or act like I've been neglectful and that's the only reason I don't have the storehouse of things they do. Bull. It's not that simple. And mine is only one story, and one of many reasons that some of us don't have all these shows on tape. It's just not so easy, or cut and dry as some people here would have you believe. Let's just try to be a little more respectful to one another on this issue. I think it's highly unfair to talk down to people about this.

If we are talking about not having recent shows, one's that have aired in the last 10 years or so, I can at least understand the point. But it's absurd to tell me I should have all these 50's and 60's shows archived on vhs. I'm not made of money nor did I have the time to run around the country visiting collector's shows and such. God bless those of you that could. I don't begrudge you that joy one bit. But don't get on a high horse and tell me I should have been doing things 20 years ago that just weren't possible for me to do. It comes off really bad. Trust me.

Gary "ok, enough of this nonsense - let's talk about positive things, like the latest FUGITIVE release" O.

P.S. And for the record, I have been buying many older shows via collectors over the last several years (once finances allowed for such). I have a pretty decent collection of Christmas-themed television series and Mystery films from the 30's and 40's. I've not had the money to invest in complete series, but I have purchased tapes that had either just the Christmas episode on it, or maybe just that episode and one or two other episodes. So I have done some searching and tried to get what I can. Heck, I'll throw out an example of the stuff I'm talking about. I just discovered, via a good friend, that the old tv series WACKIEST SHIP IN THE ARMY had a Christmas episode entitled, "I'm Dreaming of a Wide Isthmus." I'd love to add it to my collection, but I don't think it's possible. Take care, folks.
 

RickER

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Gary, i sure didnt get the feeling anyone was talking down to anybody else. I am close in age to you, was born in 63. But my family, while they did OK, we were not well off. After HS i went right to work, lived in a cheap ass apartment, shoot i drove a $200 car! But, i bought myself a TV, and a VCR, in 1982, only weeks after graduating HS! I live in Oklahoma, not a great place to be if you wanted to collect, or trade movies and TV shows. In 83 when i bought my LD player i only had 1 store that i could buy discs from. By the time the late 80's came around i had to mail order them. I have been a Trek fan all my life, as a kid i used to think how cool it would be to own a 16mm print of an episode. I did audio tapes of Trek so i could lay in bed at night and listen to them. I had those tapes 10 years, and listened to them even when my local channel didnt show Trek anymore. Same with the animated Trek in 73. Like hell am i spoiled, and like hell am i better than anyone else for what i own. Not to mention how hard i worked to get what i have. But really, it doesnt mean a thing to me. Its fun, i enjoy my movies and TV shows. Gives me something to work for, expand on, for fun!
 

Gary OS

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Rick, I was a little harsher in tone than I normally am because this issue has been brought up several times in the last few months. There's a consistent message coming from just a few people that says, "You should have most of these shows on vhs anyhow, and if you don't it's totally your fault." I just see it as a very condescending, arrogant attitude that wrongfully accuses others of not being "with it" enough to have taped shows 20+ years ago. I reject the insinuation and generalization that us not having all these shows is due to our not taking a proactive approach 20 or 30 years ago. For some of us that was never a reality.

Gary "a condescending attitude comes off very poorly on message boards and I think we have to be extra careful with the way we word things if we don't want people to misunderstand us" O.
 

troy evans

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You're exactly right. This was discussed recently in another thread and the feeling is "stop complaining, you should have taped it." I wonder why threads get started sometimes to ask for opinions, then, you end up getting blasted for it.
 

RickER

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You have to remember that many of the younger people dont remember a day without a VCR. They cannot understand that a time existed, and it was not that long ago, that you couldnt watch whatever you wanted. But when your 20-25, 25 or 30 years ago seems like a long time. And all the TV shows from their era, a majority ARE all out on DVD, or you COULD have taped them. Tape is cheap now. Another sad fact, that many, but not all, young people have never had to work hard for the "toys" they have. Mom and Dad would buy it. I see kids at friends or neighbors homes that have an LCD or plasma in their BEDROOM! Hell, my parents would never of bought me a TV when i was a kid, but they bought the grandkids TVs! Different times.
 

MatthewA

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My parents were bad tapers. When they taped animated specials for me off of network they would often cut out commercials and took heads and tails from the beginnings of acts with them. Eventually they didn't even bother to remove commercials. I still have a lot of tapes from the Disney Channel in the 1980s and early 1990s of stuff that is now commonplace on DVD, but some that isn't like promos and rare shows. They only taped stuff to time-shift it, which was rarely. And stuff got taped over. For example, my mom was apparently out one Friday in 1986, so she taped the whole day of CBS soaps, but three months later she taped a Disney Channel airing of "Oklahoma" and an NBC airing of "The Sound of Music" over them, pausing out commercials on the latter, and only that day's "Guiding Light" survives in its entirety on that tape. She taped an earlier airing of "The Sound of Music" a year or so earlier, leaving in commercials, but three years later taped over it with three Star Trek reruns with no commercials. Only the last 40 minutes remain.

Then there's also the plain and simple fact that VHS sucked. If it wasn't for the amount of time it could hold, it would never have made it into 1980. Beta tapes hold up better in terms of picture quality and physical resilience. Even 8mm video had slightly better picture.

For shows which aired in syndication I took for granted they would be gone, because at that time I would find another show I liked just as much or better. I had no idea of the onslaught of talk shows or court shows that was yet to come, nor that Nick at Nite (and later TV Land) would turn to absolute crap. Now I barely watch TV as it is except for DVDs, Blu-Rays and HDNet Movies. I don't watch reruns of my favorite shows because they are always edited, and now edited or time compressed. Now I only DVR a show if an edited episode made it onto a DVD and the rerun version has different scenes not on the DVD (as in an episode of Sanford and Son).

Later on eBay, I spent hundreds (possibly thousands) of dollars on Beta tapes and 16mm prints of TV shows. I even bought some 3/4" tapes and a few EIAJ reel-to-reel tapes. It was largely a grab-bag, and about 10% of what I got has any value to me.

The laws and regulations regarding music licensing need to change PRONTO. Film labs and telecine houses need to start offering incentives to studios to restore and remaster their back catalogues, as technology is coming around to make it easier and more cost-effective without cutting corners. Maybe those rumors of a 200GB Blu-Ray will become a reality. Then, and only then, will we be anywhere near spoiled. There is every ability to preserve one's favorite current shows. Trouble is, I don't like any of the current shows.
 

Gary OS

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Rick, I agree with you. But I believe the original poster and Hank are saying that we should even have the older shows on tape because many of them were run in the late 70's or early 80's on certain fledgling cable networks. Either that or we should have been taping and trading with people in the late 70's and early 80's - not an inexpensive hobby. If I'm wrong and these guys are only referencing shows that have aired in the last 10 to 15 years, then I don't disagree with them and I apologize. But I can't see any reasonable argument that says all of us should have, in our personal collections, those shows from the 50's and 60's that haven't aired in two or three decades.

And the other point is that even with a few of the older shows still being aired, you have to put up with cuts and horrible bugs. For instance, I love LEAVE IT TO BEAVER but I'm not about to archive the show using TVLand as my source. That thing is a monstrosity at this point and I will not waste my time archiving something so cut up and mutilated with animated, loud bugs whose audio overrides the dialog on the show. No way am I doing that.

And here's my last point on the collecting side of things. The reality is that even if someone has a collection of an obscure 1950's show I'm interested in, the chances are very great that the quality is going to be pretty poor. I've received my fair share of tapes where the quality was obscene. But I had already made the trade or bought it outright. No getting my money back on those things. So to me it's almost not worth it to spend a bunch of money on poor quality prints. I'm not looking for pristine prints, but some stuff is almost unwatchable. Therefore you have to take that into consideration when talk about old vhs tapes come into play. It's just not the same as getting studio prints.

Gary "hope that explains my position more clearly" O.
 

RickER

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I agree Gary. I want The Six Million Dollar Man, but i want it on R1. I didnt keep the tapes off Sci-Fi 10 years ago cause they cut the hell out of it. I dont like the little TV bugs either, and even worse NOW, the pop ups!
Like you, i would rather live with my pleasant memory, then spend money on crap transfers or worse, edits!
I am happy with what i have for the most part. I have Land of the Lost and Ark II, among others. Shows i didnt think i would ever see again in my life! Shows that have turned up maybe one other time in the last 35 years! I wish i had more Adam-12. Yea, i am happy for the one season i have. To bad its on DVD 18s, as one of my discs is craping out...oh well, no point crying over spilt milk, as they say. I know you love Leave it to Beaver, and i bet your happy as can be to have the 2 seasons that are out. I tend to think you will see the others, sooner, and not later. But as i said, at least we have the memory, and we are not spoiled by TV on DVD.

As many times as i have brought up The Six Million Dollar Man, Jeff Willis cant be far behind.:D
 

Gary OS

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Yes, my good buddy Jeff Willis needs to post more often. I've missed his upbeat comments and frankly, this board can use all the upbeat posts it can get. ;)

Gary "Jeff Willis is a quality person" O.
 

Bert Greene

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It really was great in the 80s, when the burgeoning cable channels were filling up their schedules with slews of old series. Every time you turned around, some new tv-rarity from the 50s/60s/70s would be given a run. Even fairly short-lived series. I tried my best to tape and preserve what I could, although it wasn't too much, thanks to a limited budget which greatly constrained me.

There is one thing that really gets to me, though. Initially, there were about 5 or 6 cable/satellite channels, then 10 or 12, then 20...and even without any special prognostic abilities, there was anticipation it would grow to 50 and 100 and more in the future, as indeed occurred. Under these circumstances, I would never, ever, have predicted that so many classic shows would disappear entirely, and be absent from view for 15-20-25 whopping years. With technology allowing a twenty-fold increase in channels/outlets, who in blue blazes would have imagined that classic standards like "Jack Benny," "Ben Casey," or "Make Room for Daddy" would be shoved aside and go unseen for DECADES? How could shows like "The Fugitive" or "Father Knows Best" become all-out rarities? That's what boggles my mind. Over 200 bloomin' channels. Think about it. That's a LOT of channels. Regardless of the usual arguments involving demographics and audience shares, am I supposed to think that, flipping through each of those 200 channels and wading through the tons of schlock they serve up, there's not a SINGLE damn place for a "Fugitive" rerun? Even at 1:00am?

It's probably a moot point, anyway, as any airings would undoubtedly be chopped to pieces, and inflicted with an assortment of grotesque pop-ups. In fact, I've all but written off commercial/cable television. As for dvd's, I think my obsession for them is directly attributed to the (aforementioned) long dry-spell of classic rerun fare. I want to 'own' copies of these shows, hold them in my hands, and just know that I have instant access to them any time I desire. I'm rarely inclined to really complain about anything (well, other than the travesty that is being made of "Route 66" on dvd, an all-time favorite of mine). I'm just thrilled when anything comes out, even if most of the tv-material that I'm really interested in has yet to be tapped, and remain unlikely candidates for dvd-release. So, I don't know about being 'spoiled.' I mostly just feel very, very grateful for this whole dvd trend, shortcomings and all.
 

Gary OS

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Excellent! I can always count on Bert to express my feelings so eloquently. I agree with everything you wrote, buddy.

Gary "it really is amazing that with all the options, station-wise, the classics are still losing ground and losing it quickly - who'd have ever thought it would get this bad" O.
 

RickER

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Your post is very true Bert. You know, even when these old show do turn up, without ads to promote them, just like you would see for a new show, no one will tune in. And, no one will buy the DVDs. Nobody but people that already know what it is. Plenty of old shows i never watched as a kid, or i was to young to know what i was seeing, turn up with no fanfare at all! To be honest, if a 44 year old guy who loves classic TV doesnt know about a show, i would imagine that few others would. Lets take The High Chaparrall from your list Gary. The only thing i remember is the theme (great theme by the way), and a few of the stars. Beyond that all i have is the faint memory of watching it with my dad. I couldnt have been any older than 5. My dad doesnt buy many DVDs, and he wouldnt even know if this show was out, or even on TV, because they wouldnt show any ads for DVD, or TV.
 

Hank Dearborn

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There are many people who's circumstances didn't allow them to record shows, especially in the early days of the hobby. Where I lived it was very frustrating because cable didn't come to my part of NY until late 1990. And I didn't make decent money until around 1987 or so, therefore before that I had to spend a good percentage of my income on the hobby. So I missed the great boom of rare reruns, at least being able to tape them myself. I had to beg and plead with people to try to get things like Mr. Novak recorded. Living in NY, which was always a terrible market - no cable, too few independent stations, everything cut to pieces - it was quite challenging to be a collector.
But getting back to the point about recording, I can see why so few people did this in the late 70s when prices on everything were high, but what about the late 80s or the 90s? Or even today. How many posters do you read complaining about these new shows that are filled with these treacly pop songs that get released and all of the music is changed? Now I couldn't care less about 99% of modern television but at the cost of blank DVDRs, something like 25 cents a disc, why is this still an issue? But yet you still read the same whining complaints over and over.

Regarding LITB, I know that it ran on TV Land for a long time. Was it on in the early days when they ran many of their shows uncut? I don't know the answer but that would have been a great chance to get them. I'm sorry I didn't have access to the channel as they ran other shows complete as well, like Bilko, which it looks like we'll never see.
 

RickER

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I agree Hank, i hate 99% of the stuff thats on TV too. But, the stuff i do like, Battlestar Galactica, and Doctor Who (funny, both remakes of old shows) i wouldnt record off TV because of the damn pop-up ads, and bugs in the corner. Pop-ups alone almost make me turn off TV. I wouldnt even have satellite, but my wife LOVES her football.
 

Gary OS

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Hank, I have no problem with that and actually agree with you. If I was a fan of any of today's tv (I'm not) then I'd be recording what I wanted just in case it didn't come out on dvd. Recording has really gotten to the point where it's no more expensive than buying the dvds of the same show, in fact it's probably cheaper to just record them off tv. So I'm with you on newer shows. It's not the same thing at all.

LITB I have no idea about. I didn't really get into a position where I could afford to archive much until about 10 years ago. The only things I made sure I got (in the early to mid-90's) were ABBOTT & COSTELLO films when they were running on Comedy Central and THE FUGITIVE when it was on A&E. I upgraded the Janssen series about 7 years ago from a collector who had a great set and of course most of the A&C films came out on vhs and later dvd so those two archiving ventures were a wash. The only thing I can say for sure with LITB is that it was not being shown uncut in the late 90's because I was all set to start recording it as soon as TVLAND was added to my cable provider (I've since switched to satellite). But to my chagrin the episodes were already being cut and the ending theme was being intruded on by commercials for other shows. And that was a good 10 years ago. I think the 80's were the last great decade for getting these older series off television.

Gary "it really is sad that with all the options we have no one can provide us with a real solid national 'oldies' station playing uncut and unmolested series" O.
 

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