Are the Days of HTF Influence with the Studios over? (1 Viewer)

[Lew Crippen]

Just interested in knowing what the difference between, 'Joe six-pack' and the rest of the forum membership is? Are people who use this term insinuating that we are all part of some elite club

I think that the answer is yes—every time I read this reference, it seems to be condescending. And I don’t mind a beer (or so) with a movie, myself.

If this makes me Joe, I’m not concerned.

 

[Joshua L]

I was in my local BB in Lemoyne, PA and was surprised that they did have many widescreen versions of the DVD's Available. They are actually labeled as "wide-screen" and "Full Frame Version"

I don't know if my BB is an exception, but most titles that have been put out is WS and P&S versions are available for rent as well as for purchase.

There is a new video store in my area, that seams to be a new start up chain. I have a friend who is in management there and I will go check it out soon. Maybe I can influence them to at least get both versions of all of their DVDs.

 

[Joshua L]

Oh yeah...There is one thing I forgot to add. I was renting a new independent film from BB and wanted to make sure it was Widescreen. I had been browsing other movies when I remembered that I hadn't checked.

I walked back to the case where the 2 copies of the movies are, and another individual was looking at the same movie. I said "Excuse me, I would like to check and see if this DVD is the widescreen version of the film" and he replied with "You actually like those kind, with the black bars?!?"
I almost couldn't help but laugh when he said "I don't need a widescreen movies, I have a 52" big screen tv"

I then proceeded to explain the difference between pan&scan and widescreen....He looked confused.

 

[Eugene Esterly]

Just interested in knowing what the difference between, 'Joe six-pack' and the rest of the forum membership is? Are people who use this term insinuating that we are all part of some elite club - differentiated from the, "common" masses? Perhaps it is terms like this and the snobbery and aggression attached that has put execs off. I have said for years now that priggish attitudes are going to have a detrimental effect to both this and other forums. I don't think studio execs are thin-skinned in the way some members imagine - it is not that they are over-sensitive, it's that they're pissed off with all the aggression and whining and moaning that has gone on.

The term J6P is often used to describe the people who want every Widescreen movie released in Pan & scan but it is also used to describe the people who won't buy any Widescreen movies & the people who keep complaining about the black bars.

A high % of people on this forum are people who want all DVD's to be released in their OAR.

IMO, the studios have stopped participating in this forum & other forums because of the aggression/ name calling/ personal attacks, etc on the studios & their reps.

IMO, another reason why the studios aren't participating is that now that DVD has gone mainstream, the early adopters aren't as important anymore. It is now the common consumer who is now important. Think about it, if the common consumer wants Pan & scan then studios are going to give them Pan & scan.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Good lord, not yet ANOTHER "what is Joe6, I don't like that term" debate. Why raise that dead horse from the grave?
People take away too much from that term. First of all, I think any literal connection to beer drinking is ridiculous (I will assume for now it was sarcasm - its sometimes hard to tell online).
Secondly, it should be rather obvious that if you are willing to go ONLINE to a HT chat site to discuss various aspects of DVD and HT YOU ARE NOT NORMAL. You are a SPECIALTY group. You are elite not in terms of being better, smarter or more privileged. You are elite in terms of understanding DVD and HT, or at least in your passion for it.
Joe6 doesn't have 700 DVDs (unless he has a ton of money and buys just to buy with little real interest or effort). Joe6 probably doesn't know about DVD-A or SACD or D-VHS or that Lucas is holding the original Star Wars back.
So you can go around getting offended all you want, but that's totally your own issue you are dealing with.
The bottom line is that ANY GROUP in any field/hobby that organizes, discusses, trades info across the country, and gathers info into one spot so that the cumulative effect is to have a virtual storehouse of knowledge on the hobby represents an elite group of interest in that hobby.
Go to Walmart or the grocery store or the park. Take a poll about the Raiders DVD or the African Queen DVD or the Empire Strikes Back DVD. See how many people know that these titles aren't even available. See how many people know what region coding is. I think you will find that the average person doesn't know, and probably doesn't care.
I don't think it's wrong to suggest that the better feedback comes from the people that do know and do care about such things. Just as it would with any hobby.
I don't think Chevy should listen to my opinion more than the ones coming from the Chevy Car Club of America or something.
I agree more with Damin on the idea that much of this good knowledge was getting washed over with some of the noise (the irate postings and sometimes even outright incorrectly informed ones). But I have always said that the studios are getting a HUGE bargain by having a free test group who practically begs to give them quality feedback, even going so far as to TROUBLESHOOT issues ourselves (like the Bond films, Monsters Inc, etc).
And I can tell you that studios aren't the only ones who like to eavesdrop on such info. CE companies want to know what's right/wrong with their products too. Do you realize how valuable it is to find out early on that the color of your TV plastic makes people not want to buy them, or that the remote is annoying to use?
Finally, it's not like there are LESS HTF types in the world now. A lesser PCT, yes, but the studio can still sell the same amount of product to the HTF type as they were in 2000 or 1998 (more now actually). So I think HTF probably does still have some influence, at least over specialty releases that have the HTF demographic as the main target.

 

[Jay E]

What makes me laugh about the Joe 6 pack references is that it can be used against any one of us here at the forum in regards to other areas, for example, our taste in films. I personally don't use the term but I also don't care that other people do.

Yes we have lost our influence with the studios, but don't worry, they'll come back and use us again for HD-DVD.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Yes,
we need to concentrate on HD-DVD.
DVD will become (even more than it is now) a "mainstream" medium that panders to the average consumer.
HD-DVD will be the medium of choice for the true film collector and conissour.
It will be like in the mid 1990's: VHS for the regular consumer who viewed movies as a commodity, and Laserdisc for the avid collector.
This is why many of us have been so adamant about making the studios aware of our expectations for HD-DVD.

• 1080 Progressive with full vertical (unfiltered) resolution.
• 24 bit MLP auido capability.
• D-VHS or better video quality (minimal video compression).
• No "EE" or artifical video processing artifacts.
• True "text" based subtitle feature for high-quality subtitle display.

HD-DVD is our chance to have the format we've always wanted, and to have one that is truly optimized for the home-theater enthusiast and film collector.
It really is.
We, the enthusiasts, will drive the HD-DVD market and we'll have it to ourselves for a LONG LONG TIME.
The advantages of HD-DVD vs SD-DVD is fidelity. All the other "tape to disc" advantages that appeal so much to the average consumer are already met with SD-DVD. And the picture they see on their 4x3 NTSC displays with SD-DVD is very satisfying. Trust me...HD-DVD will meet YOUR needs for a long time before Walmart's influence takes it over (if ever).
Please, sign the petition in my signature if you haven't already.

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Yes, that is just what we need - HD Pan & Scan movies!

We can't even get the studios to issue WS in the current format. Why in the world would they do WS in HD?

Glenn

 

[Michael Reuben]

We can't even get the studios to issue WS in the current format.

So all the widescreen films I've been buying lately are just figments of my imagination? :wink:

M.

 

[Sanjay Gupta]

We can't even get the studios to issue WS in the current format. Why in the world would they do WS in HD?

I'd like to see the studios be able to sell even one copy of a HD-DVD with a Pan Scan transfer.

Sanjay

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Glenn,

did you bother to read my post?

The dynamic is the same as it was with VHS and Laserdisc. The same studios gave the masses P/S on VHS while they did OAR on Laserdisc to appeal to the movie-phile.

Same will be true with DVD vs HD-DVD. But we need to make sure we get the format specifications up to par before everything is finalized to maximize the image quality potential (like 1080P standardization for film sourced material).

-dave

 

[Elbert Lee]

I think the studios are just being cautious in their participation on the HTF, as it hasn't been proven to be that constructive to wade in the DRAMA that arises on the message boards. It seems that they much rather pass the information through the moderators who, not only represent the many voices of the membership, but are a bit more open and understanding of the limitations that the studios face in delivering product.
Ultimately, the studios need to maintin a good relationship with the membership since we may be the early adopters for HD DVD.

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Yep, I read it, and fully get it, but...

Unlike the VHS/Laser disk days, the studios know now how much money they can make. It is true that most releases have WS & P&S, but some are only P&S. Some of the Ernest series, and the 'shrunk/blew up the kids, as well as Summer Lovers (coming up) are all in P&S only.

My argument is that since the movie originally came out in WS, there really isn't much work to do to get it transferred to a DVD, in contrast to the P&S ones, which have to be looked at with a fine toothed comb, as they say.

What you want is for the studios to jump onto the HD bandwagon and issue a separate release just for the HD users. Assuming one format came out tomorrow and the first HD DVD's rolled off of the presses in say, 2 months, how many HD copies are they going to press out? 000.01% of the P&S's?

We can't even get them to run off the (major guess here) 40% that want only WS. It would just cost them too much to make a new run. I think they would have to get new machines that can write on the HD standard as well too.

Glenn

 

[DaViD Boulet]

My point is that *when* HD-DVD gets here it will be a format designed to appeal to the enthusiast market that we are.

I'll fight for all the OAR 16x9 SD-DVDs that I can (have you called Disney to complain about their lack of OAR???) but I won't let my heart break over it either knowing that one day we'll have something better.

 

[Justin Pledger]

You see?!? This is what happens - seemingly every thread will be twisted and distorted so that yet another argument about OAR rears its' ugly head. Can you guys not have a conversation without going on and on and on ad nauseum about OAR even when the thread is not actually about OAR?! Why must you insist upon taking every single opportunity to sermonise on what appears to be an obsessed viewpoint. We get the message, guys - really we do. The sheer volume of petitions in your signatures is enough to convince without ramming the point home on every single post made.

Can we please, please get back to the discussion at hand - it was on the verge of becoming pretty interesting reading...

 

[Seth Paxton]

What makes me laugh about the Joe 6 pack references is that it can be used against any one of us here at the forum in regards to other areas

Which is exactly the point of normal usage.

I don't know what some people mean to imply with it, but standard usage appears to be just as you have described. And this is how I was defending it, just as many others have previously defended it at HTF before now.

 

[Joel Vardy]

There is no doubt that this forum represents the 'elite' in knowledge about HT issues. The question for the studios that were till now looking for direction from us is this a 'cheap' substitute for good market research? The answer they have obviously come back with is a resounding NO! The GAP betewen HTF consensus and the 'average' DVD consumer is growing. We are getting more demanding and representing an ever smaller percentage of the buying public.

Our demanding needs don't translate into $$$'s. Despite the good intentions of some studio executives who actually sometimes understand and agree with our views -- the feedback coming back to them from Wal*Mart and other mass distribution channels is that certain issues (P&S vs. WS for instance) are not well represented by the Internet community. That is why we may not be getting our dues. We need to learn the art of compromise and influence by showing direct links of our 'thought leadership' positions and the impact on purchasing behavior of the average consumer (notice I didn't use J6P). This behavior change goes beyond any education process (as some have pointed out in this thread and others) and goes to the fundamentals of affordable playback platforms. $2K-$7K average costs for a decent WS HDTV is still considerably above the affordable point for most consumers. The pricepoint is fortunately coming down rapidly and that will do more to change the behavior patterns than our constant whining. It has been pointed out numerous times that children actually don't care about this contreversy. It is the parents that make the purchasing decisions (without input from the young ones).

Having said all that I have never cared much about being 'average' and enjoy 'elitist' labels like many in this forum. On the other hand, as a former Technocrat, Marketeer and Technology Executive I realize that everything eventually falls back to the 'value proposition' level. If perceived value is high you get commensurate actions taken. As DVD's have matured from the afficionado (early adopter) stage to the level of market penetration they are today (mature and clear VHS competition) the pace of new releases has hit a frantic level because of the dollars at stake. TV advertising is clearly highlighting DVD's and only by the way mentioning video releases as well. The print press still reaches more people than the Internet. That is about to change (mostly in developed countries) and the influence game will change as well. The studios will, indeed, look for the Internet press more and more. We just have to be a bit more aware of the responsibility to be 'fair and impartial'. Since we are still skewed towards the 'isn't technology cool' rather than 'what value is technology providing' we are still seen as 'fringe' and not necessarily a good investment for the studio dollars. I hope this helps to teach us that with opportunity also comes responsibility. We have to stop demanding the unreasonable and understand the limitations of the market.

Ron and Parker have been privy to the constraints the studios have to live by and therefore have earned the right to influence their directions by providing a valuable service. This service still requires them to filter the sometimes 'extreme views' some of the younger (and perhaps some older) members exhibit at the HTF. The style we chose to influence each other and the non-HTF community does count. Childish ranting is counterproductive. I have been a member here for over 4 years and for the most part the culture here is of a civilized discussion/debate variety. I've learned a lot but have stayed away from posting in some of the more volatile threads. Managing this situation is quite a challenge and I don't envy the moderators' role. It can be sometimes seen like 'herding cats' but for the most part it works.

I have been priviliged to be part of this revolution and look forward to the future even if it is not clear exactly how it will play out. The studios, I believe, are holding back, observing but not exposing themselves to public criticism. They are led by human beings, who of course, don't want to be personally crucified every time they directly participate. However, if they see a way to profit from participating directly again they will.

Change will happen but perhaps not at the pace we would like.

Joel

 

[AaronMK]

You see?!? This is what happens - seemingly every thread will be twisted and distorted so that yet another argument about OAR rears its' ugly head. .... even when the thread is not actually about OAR?!

The fact is that the main issue most HTF members have with the studios and retailers is decreasing OAR support. So in a since, when we talk about studio influence, that is more or less what it comes down to these days.

 

[Jeffrey Gray]

I am reading these, and it looks like you're all digging further and further into this hole that you yourselves created. Can't you all be remotely social, and not bitch and moan about the problems that have arisen with DVD in such a negative way? As stated time and time again, you yourselves are reponsible for the studios ignoring you. If you want respect and support and influence, you have to earn it. And it doesn't look like you've earned it. End of rant.

 

[Joel Vardy]

I essentially agree with Jeffrey. Early in the days of my involvement with HTF there was an argument about the need to maintain an elite position to Home Theater and not to succumb to the inevitable movement of DVD's to the 'middle of the pack', which was seen as home video rather than 'home theater'. Home video being oblivious to any minimum hardware other than any sized monitor connected to any type of playback devise VHS/DVD/LD ... Since most DVD viewers probably watch more TV than movies is there any wonder that 4:3 and Full Screen is the preferred AR? Since this is not likely to change we need to accept our niche position as being 'out of the mainstream' and ask for studios to consider our 'vocal minority' position when developing their software. Since we spend a disproportionate amount of our income on this hobby we have an opportunity to shape the products of the future despite our ever smaller economic clout till HD-DVD .
Joel