Anyone with an RPTV please help me.

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Sam Pat, Jun 22, 2003.

  1. Sam Pat

    Sam Pat Stunt Coordinator

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    As discussed here, I recently purchased a Panasonic PT47WX42 RPTV. It is my first HDReady TV of any kind.

    However, I've noticed a phenomenon with my TV that I'm not sure what to make of.

    While watching ANY image, from Cable TV to my Progressive Scan DVDs connected using component cables, I get these horizontal lines in a periodic fashion from the top of the screen all the way to the bottom. When you are close to the screen, ie (a foot from it), they are very visible. They look almost like the NTSC scan lines. But they do not flicker, and they are very steady. But they are present enough than even when viewing from 7 feet away, I notice them being there (especially when you see a bright sky scene).

    These lines are more visible the lower the contrast. On torch mode, you don't really see them.

    I went back to the store with my DVD player and the same DVD I tested earlier, and their display model did exhibit this as well, although to a lesser degree.

    I've also tried another DVD player on my TV. Same results. Horizontal Lines are there.

    I know that these TVs have a lens for a screen, so they do have vertical lines, which are very visible when the TV is off. However, I am NOT talking about these vertical lines. I am talking about horizontal lines which I dont think should be there.

    I've made very sure that my DVD player is on progressive scan mode.

    What I am asking of RPTV owners is to please inspect your images closely (i.e a couple inches from the TV), and tell me if you see ANY steady horizontal lines. These horizontal lines are similar in thickness as those lines of the TV's lens. They may also look reddish in colour.

    And please tell me if you think my TV should be exchanged for a different one.

    Thanks very much.

    P.S. The store people insist those lines are normal.
     
  2. Sam Pat

    Sam Pat Stunt Coordinator

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    Also, one last thing,

    When i zoom the image, ie change it from the native aspect ratio, the image has much thicker lines.

    If that makes a difference...
     
  3. adamKI

    adamKI Stunt Coordinator

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    Hi Sam,

    I just checked my TV (same model as yours). If my eyes are about 2 inches from the screen I can see some very faint redish horizontal lines - any further from the screen and they are gone. So either your eyes are incredibly sensitive or your tv is defective ... and now that I look at the picture you posted on the other thread, mine DEFINITELY don't look like that.

    I'd tell your dealer that they either have to exchange the set or send a tech to calibrate it (then replace it if he can't fix it).

    Good luck!
     
  4. Sam Pat

    Sam Pat Stunt Coordinator

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    The picture I took is misleading. They aren't actually black. They are reddish like you described. And they dont actually look like. Not that prominent.

    I also realized that they are much worse when I zoom a non 16:9 movie than if I watch it in its native aspect ratio.

    Adam do you mind testing yours like this as well?

    Thank you.
     
  5. Sam Pat

    Sam Pat Stunt Coordinator

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    Adam,

    Can you tell me your Brightness, Contrast and other video settings you think might be relevant?

    In torch mode the lines disappear altogether, and increase with decreasing contrast on mine...
     
  6. Jack Briggs

    Jack Briggs Executive Producer

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    Sam, offhand, from what I can make out in your post, you are probably looking at picture-structure information a little too closely. Grab a refreshment and a bag of popcorn, pop in a movie, and sit all the way back on your sofa (a few feet), and watch the film.
     
  7. adamKI

    adamKI Stunt Coordinator

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    Sam,

    Are you using your DVD player's zoom or the "Zoom" aspect setting on the TV? Just wondering, because if it's DVD zoom then it may not be the TV afterall. Anyway, it doesn't make a difference for me either way.

    Sounds like the Vivid/"torch" mode is simply covering up whatever defect you have. I took my Brightness and Contrast almost all the way down to see if the lines became clearly visible on my set and didn't notice any change. I still have to have my face right up against the screen to see anything out of the ordinary (even then, the lines are very, very faint).

    Here are my settings (after doing a V.E. calibration):

    Color: 20
    Tint: 26
    Brightness: 27
    Picture: 25
    Sharpness: 32

    Color Temp: Normal
    Natural Color: OFF
    Video NR: OFF
    3D Y/C Filter: OFF

    Hope this helps.

    -adam
     
  8. adamKI

    adamKI Stunt Coordinator

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    Jack,

    He says he can still see the lines from 7 feet away (not an unreasonable viewing distance for a screen that size). That's certainly not normal and he shouldn't have to put up with it after spending $1500 on a tv.

    Again, I'd tell the store that they can fix it or replace it. And don't let them just turn on Vivid mode and call it good.
     
  9. Sam Pat

    Sam Pat Stunt Coordinator

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    I don't know what to think now, guys.

    I should also mention that once I notice something, I tend to be rather obsessive and tend to focus on it alot.

    I have yet to do either a VE or AVIA calibration, so I'm not sure if those would improve matters.

    However, tonight I did do some experimenting. Sitting at around 7 ft away, I watched the entire Monsters Inc. movie for the first time, and I thought it was breathtaking. Didn't notice the lines. I was very impressed with the crispness of all the small details, like being able to see every strand of Sullivan's fur. I also watched a full episode of Family Guy on DVD, and that too looked wonderful. There's lots of big, smooth images in that cartoon and all of them looked smooth - one big uninterrupted image. I think it's just the Three Kings DVD.

    I should also mention that these horizontal lines I see are NOT much more prominent than the inherent lines of the TV's lens. (ie, those vertical lines you see when the TV is off). So I think I am being a little obsessive.

    Also, I should also mention I went to the shop today with my DVD player and Three Kings DVD, and I noticed the same lines on the display model. So really, it'd be a pretty slim chance that I've experience TWO of these Pannys with the same defect.

    Jack's right. I should just chill out and enjoy the set.

    If I come across any new developments I'll keep you guys posted.

    Thanks for your efforts Adam!
     
  10. adamKI

    adamKI Stunt Coordinator

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    OK, I take back my previous post, Jack. Sam's just crazy [​IMG]

    But seriously, Sam, you should step through VE or Avia and I bet things will look better. You also might want to take a look at the tips and tricks at www.panny.tv. There you can learn how to tweak the focus and experience the joy of 64-point conversion adjustment.

    Enjoy your new set!
     
  11. Jack Briggs

    Jack Briggs Executive Producer

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    These quotes, of course, describe all of us! Enjoy that terrific set, Sam. [​IMG]
     
  12. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    The set still has scanlines. 480p as produced by a progressive scan player or the set's own line doubling effectively doubles the number of lines but they are still there and will still be visible, you just have to be closer to the screen to see them. If you could turn off the line doubling you would have to sit about 15 or 20 feet away to get the same effect you get now from 7 feet.






    I've had 2 HD ready widescreen sets, one a 53 inch Hitachi and the other a 57 inch Sony, and if I look really hard from much less than 8 or 10 feet and have recently cleaned my glasses I can see the scanlines on 480p. From 2 feet or so I can just barely see them on 1080i HD.

    I've also had 2 analog, non-line doubling 53 inch rptvs in the house. The scanlines on them were very visible from 14 or 15 feet away.

    Cranking up the contrast is causing the set to "bloom" so you don't see the black (or reddish or whatever) lines between the scanlines. This is a BAD thing and don't do it!!!!

    There's nothing wrong with your set, sit back relax and enjoy!!!
     
  13. Sam Pat

    Sam Pat Stunt Coordinator

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    Thanks for the input Steve!

    I think it's safe to say now I'm very satisfied. I just watched Episode II: Attack of the Clones and I was very, very smitten. Didn't even think of, or notice any lines. [​IMG]

    This is a little unrelated, but I didn't want to start another thread to clutter the board. It's still Display Devices related, and I thought I would continue here because Adam has the same set as me.

    When I'm viewing 1.85 material (Monsters Inc., Snatch), using "Full Mode" on the TV and with NO zoom or aspect altering features enabled on the DVD player, my 1.85 DVDs fill the screen completely. This doesn't seem right.

    I can tell of NO image distortion. Weird.

    I know the Snatch DVD pretty well and I can't tell that it has been cropped at all.

    When I change the TV to "Zoom" mode, there is distortion.

    Any ideas? Adam? Anyone?

    I do get black bars on 2.35 movies, however.
     
  14. Jeff Gatie

    Jeff Gatie Lead Actor

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    1.85:1 movies will fill a 1.78:1 screen most of the time for 2 reasons. 1) Because the factory overscan on the set covers up the black bars 2) The movie is slightly cropped to 1.78:1 (much less common). Usually it is the overscan. If you are attentive to minutia, you can adjust the overscan in the service menu until to see the black bars, but this can lead to geometry issues.
     
  15. Sam Pat

    Sam Pat Stunt Coordinator

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    Jeff,

    Thanks for your response!

    Steve,

    I was thinking about what you said and that has made me a bit curious.

    As far as I know, when you have a NTSC 480i image, for every frame, the odd lines are scanned for half of the frame, then the even lines are scanned in. The time when the even lines have yet to appear is when you see those black lines.

    With a 480p image, both even and odd lines are scanned at once.

    So where do these scan lines we see still come from? Anyone?

    Thanks!
     
  16. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

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    Sam,

    They are different kinds of "scan lines".

    With 480i, you might notice the alternating scan line gaps in the 60 fields/sec image in addition to the tiny gaps between scan lines across the entire frame.

    With 480p, you only have the tiny gaps between scan lines.

    Depending on the size of your TV and how tightly focused the CRT guns are and how hard they're driven (eg. lower "contrast" vs blooming) plus how far you sit, you may or may not notice any of these scan line gaps.

    Anyway, don't worry about them if you don't see them under normal viewing conditions watching actual content. You may, however, want to get a DVD player that scales non-16x9 letterbox DVDs though so you don't need to use the TV's zoom mode, if you watch plenty of such DVDs. That's what I (and some other people) did.

    Also, if you switch your cable service to HD service, that will likely make the scan line gaps less noticeable for TV broadcasts.

    _Man_
     
  17. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

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    Hmmm...

    I just checked your picture in the other thread, and that doesn't look right to me. Are you sure this is not happening for the other DVDs you tried recently?

    To me, it looks worse than my Panny 53's zoom mode. It really does look like a picture of a 480i image, instead of 480p.

    Are you sure that wasn't taken in the TV's zoom mode??

    Also, I recommend checking AVIA's overscan pattern to see what your TV overscan is set to. Maybe it's way too high, which would add to the problem.

    _Man_
     
  18. Sam Pat

    Sam Pat Stunt Coordinator

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    Man-Fai,

    Yes, it was taken in the TV's zoom mode, and yes, the pictures are grossly exaggerated. I had to fiddle with my camera considerably to make the lines show up at all, and when they did, they made my set look like it's playing 480i.

    I was shopping for audio stuff at a local store yesterday, and I took the time to inspect all their HD-ready sets closely. All their RPTV sets had the same lines I'm noticing, and in the exact same darkness/ visibility. So those pictures are clearly not a good representation.

    And I do have a progscan DVD player that outputs in 16:9. The lines are only visible when I watch in the TV's zoom mode.

    And that was the problem. I was watching Three Kings in zoom mode because I didn't want those black bars while the TV was so new, so I thought the lines were a defect.

    I think I might have a pretty high overscan, as described by Jeff above.

    Thanks for the explanation Man-Fai, that certainly clears the mystery up. Much appereciated. [​IMG]

    Sam
     
  19. Allan Jayne

    Allan Jayne Cinematographer

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    The electron beam thickness is small relative to the scan line spacing, so gaps between the scan lines are more noticeable.

    By adjusting the focus control(s) the beam thickness can be made greater, although this reduces the horizontal resolution also.

    In torch mode (high, high, contrast) the scan line may get wider in the brighter parts of the picture. This is called blooming and is due to overloading of the phosphors. This hides the scan line visibility but also shortens 6the life of the picture tube(s).

    In zoom mode, generally the inner 360 scan lines are spread out to occupy the entire screen height. Most TV sets don't switch to a thicker beam width so gaps between scan lines will be even more pronounced.

    The gaps may appear reddish because (a) the red picture tube beam happens to already be wider, (b) stray light inside the TV cabinet not absorbed by dark surfaces happens to be more reddish, or (c) the plastic of the screen layers tends to let more reddish light bleed from one scan line position to the next.

    Video hints:
    http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/video.htm
     
  20. Sam Pat

    Sam Pat Stunt Coordinator

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    Thanks for the insight, Allan! [​IMG]
     

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