Anyone feel a bit letdown by Shout! Select? (1 Viewer)

[The Obsolete Man]

I've officially had it with Shout! Factory. I hate how they have the nerve to call M.A.S.K. on DVD "The Complete Series" when in reality, it's only the first season. Even tvshowsondvd.com considers both seasons the complete series. It's horrible things like these that leave me thinking to believe that this company cannot be trusted at all. And yes, they do contradict themselves over and over and over again. Sad and embarrassing that this company has been caught lying many times. Everything from the syndicated prints on Father Knows Best season 1, to the Rhoda season 1 debacle, to their not checking for music rights issues in Werewolf, to the encoding issues with All in the Family S7, Mad About You S5, and Rhoda S4. And anything else? I lost count. I've finally opened my eyes. I'm disappointed in them, VERY DISAPPOINTED.

What "encoding issues" with Rhoda season 4? The 10 missing seconds that Fox lopped off one episode? That's an encoding issue? Second, they aren't wrong in saying that MASK is the complete series. While the other 10 episodes aren't there because of licensing reasons, those last 10 are, essentially, a different show with a different format.

 

[TravisR]

I've officially had it with Shout! Factory. I hate how they have the nerve to call M.A.S.K. on DVD "The Complete Series" when in reality, it's only the first season. Even tvshowsondvd.com considers both seasons the complete series. It's horrible things like these that leave me thinking to believe that this company cannot be trusted at all. And yes, they do contradict themselves over and over and over again. Sad and embarrassing that this company has been caught lying many times. Everything from the syndicated prints on Father Knows Best season 1, to the Rhoda season 1 debacle, to their not checking for music rights issues in Werewolf, to the encoding issues with All in the Family S7, Mad About You S5, and Rhoda S4. And anything else? I lost count. I've finally opened my eyes. I'm disappointed in them, VERY DISAPPOINTED.

"Lying", "cannot be trusted at all" and "I've finally opened my eyes."? It's not like we're talking an issue that has a real importance in life. It's just a DVD. You're bringing up some good points about the mistakes that they've made but you're also blowing them out of proportion and weakening your valid point.

 

[vnisanian2001]

What "encoding issues" with Rhoda season 4? The 10 missing seconds that Fox lopped off one episode? That's an encoding issue? Second, they aren't wrong in saying that MASK is the complete series. While the other 10 episodes aren't there because of licensing reasons, those last 10 are, essentially, a different show with a different format.

Apparently, Rhoda, a filmed show, also suffered from the exact same encoding issues for its S4 release as AITF S7 did. Snowpeck brought this up. In addition, I remember JeffWld complaining about Mad About You S5 suffering from the exact same thing.

 

[Jack P]

"Lying", "cannot be trusted at all" and "I've finally opened my eyes."? It's not like we're talking an issue that has a real importance in life. It's just a DVD. You're bringing up some good points about the mistakes that they've made but you're also blowing them out of proportion and weakening your valid point.

The thing is, the "just a DVD" argument certainly wasn't used for any of the more famous CBS/Paramount debacles. I do have to agree that there is a greater tendency that seems to exist to be more charitable to Shout for their numerous blunders over the years and they have more than their share just like CBS/Paramount does amidst all the good work that's been done. When it comes to released product, the only one that I had to be upset by was AITF S7, because for a long time there was an effort deny there was a problem and we had people incredibly insisting that the botch job looked even better than the previous Sony releases. Shout has also IMO not always handled themselves well when it comes to being totally forthright on the nature of upcoming releases. Frankly, the word we had earlier that "Ironside's" status is suddenly iffy again is of concern to me only because we have SEEN earlier indications from e-mail notices sent to others that there was no question but that S5 and even S6 would make it at some point this year. If that goes off the table, I'll be mad for the same reason I was mad for two years about S3 not making it because they had *indicated otherwise*. By contrast, I can't do the same over a title like "Marcus Welby" because they've put forth no illusions that it would continue at this point. But if we don't see some action soon on "Adam-12" and "Ironside" then Shout is going to take a well-earned hit IMO, because we have already seen in the past assurances to the contrary.

 

[TravisR]

The thing is, the "just a DVD" argument certainly wasn't used for any of the more famous CBS/Paramount debacles.

There were people that blew things out of proportion there too. That's not to give Paramount or Shout a pass, I just think that blowing things out of proportion doesn't help the cause any.

 

[Gary OS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack P

The thing is, the "just a DVD" argument certainly wasn't used for any of the more famous CBS/Paramount debacles. I do have to agree that there is a greater tendency that seems to exist to be more charitable to Shout for their numerous blunders over the years and they have more than their share just like CBS/Paramount does amidst all the good work that's been done.

I'll offer a couple of reasons, personally, why I don't think it's a fair comparison. Firstly, Shout is pretty much at the mercy of the studios as to what type of quality they can offer. They don't have the money the studios do and can't remaster like the big boys can. So in that sense I've always felt they should be given a bit more slack. Secondly, I think there's a huge difference between Shout putting out a syndicated season of FKB, for example, and CBS/P gutting the backscore of The Fugitive. I'll explain.

When Shout gets cut prints from a studio it's not like they are specifically asking for cut prints so they can squeeze an extra episode on each disc or something "cheap" like that. If they were, I'd be the first to call them out on it. But they aren't going out and trying to get syndicated prints. They take what they get. Do I wish they would take more care to find out ahead of time, or at least do a check, to make sure they have uncut prints? Sure. I'd give anything to have a redo on that first season of FKB and get all uncut prints. But the point is that Shout didn't go out of their way looking for bad or uncut prints. They get what they get from the studios.

CBS/P, on the other hand, made specific choices to cut scenes and/or music out of their episodes. HUGE difference there because that was a choice that was within their control. And with The Fugitive it was extra grievous because almost everything they cut out of the background score was unnecessary! They deserved to get slammed for that! They made the choice to do it! They went out of their way to cut and mar many of their episodes. Shout didn't do that. So I don't think they deserve the same degree of criticism. Just my opinion, though.

But if we don't see some action soon on "Adam-12" and "Ironside" then Shout is going to take a well-earned hit...

The crazy thing is, this thread demonstrates that Shout has already taken hits, whether earned or not. And while everyone may not be aware of it, Shout was getting blasted on the film board so ruthlessly and wrongly that someone got banned. At least I think that's what happened to them. It was ridiculous and over the top. So I don't think Shout's been given a pass at all, at least as far as these boards go.

To my way of looking at it, these issues have an ebb and flow to them. A few years ago I was leading the parade singing CBS/P's praises, calling them the king of classic TV on DVD. But once they began gutting backscores and scenes from different series, and then began stalling series out, I stopped singing their praises. Around that same time, Shout began to pick up the ball and run with it, IMHO. Over the last couple of years they've done a great job getting quite a few classics out on DVD. So I've started singing their praises. That doesn't mean I think they are perfect. But what it does mean is that I see them doing a better job with releasing vintage TV shows than any of the major studios at this point. Again, I realize some of that is going to be based on what a person does or doesn't like. But I think we all realize that colors our perceptions, and since we've discussed that already I'll go no further.



Gary "just my two cents" O.

 

[Jack P]

Gary, you have a point regarding what the studio provides them, but that wouldn't hold true for the botch-jobs on encoding like they did on AITF where it was entirely their fault. But even on the matter of studios providing syndicated prints I think Shout should at the very least have had *someone* on their staff look them over so they could just ask an obvious question to the studio, "Are these uncut? Can you check the records on your end?" I'd like to think it doesn't require too much effort to just have someone in the company stop to ask that question during the negotiations process, and just say, "If we take on this title and pay you for the privilege of licensing it, please guarantee uncut prints to us or ones that have not been edited in terms of program content." That certainly wouldn't have required no more effort for someone at CBS/Paramount to check on the matter of what music was free and clear and didn't have to be edited on Fugitive or more egregiously Odd Couple (which IMO is their biggest crime. Fugitive at least did not have program content tampered with).

 

[JoeDoakes]

I really don't get this thread. I hope no one from Shout! gets offended by it. I think this thread started with someone who wanted Shout to be more like Warner Archive and MOD, which will never happen with a company that has to license their material. Much of the rest of it has been devoted to griping about issues that were already previously explored elsewhere. It seems to me that Shout learned that fans strongly prefer original broadcast prints over syndication prints. At least Shout has not been selling often unwatchable "collector prints" (on another board, one person said that a collector print package of a show done by another company - not Shout - included a tranfer from a multigeneraion derivative of a vhs copy he had made of a 16mm print he owned back in the 1990s). As for encoding issues, I have no idea how complicated producing DVD sets is, but I do know that major studios have made numerous technical errors over the years and they have a lot more technical people than Shout. I also think that the word "lie" is way overused. if something you want has not been released, try lobbying for it instead of hurling insults. Online lobbying certainly worked for fans of the Lucy Show. Anyone who cares about classic tv in general should know that they are very lucky to have Shout. I think that, with Shout, the glass is over 95% full. As Mr. Spock would say, Live Long and Prosper.

 

[vnisanian2001]

I really don't get this thread. I hope no one from Shout! gets offended by it. I think this thread started with someone who wanted Shout to be more like Warner Archive and MOD, which will never happen with a company that has to license their material. Much of the rest of it has been devoted to griping about issues that were already previously explored elsewhere. It seems to me that Shout learned that fans strongly prefer original broadcast prints over syndication prints. At least Shout has not been selling often unwatchable "collector prints" (on another board, one person said that a collector print package of a show done by another company - not Shout - included a tranfer from a multigeneraion derivative of a vhs copy he had made of a 16mm print he owned back in the 1990s). As for encoding issues, I have no idea how complicated producing DVD sets is, but I do know that major studios have made numerous technical errors over the years and they have a lot more technical people than Shout. I also think that the word "lie" is way overused. if something you want has not been released, try lobbying for it instead of hurling insults. Online lobbying certainly worked for fans of the Lucy Show. Anyone who cares about classic tv in general should know that they are very lucky to have Shout. I think that, with Shout, the glass is over 95% full. As Mr. Spock would say, Live Long and Prosper.

Excuse me, but I have a right to complain. You can't force me to be happy with this corporation.

 

[Gary OS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack P

Gary, you have a point regarding what the studio provides them, but that wouldn't hold true for the botch-jobs on encoding like they did on AITF where it was entirely their fault. But even on the matter of studios providing syndicated prints I think Shout should at the very least have had *someone* on their staff look them over so they could just ask an obvious question to the studio, "Are these uncut? Can you check the records on your end?" I'd like to think it doesn't require too much effort to just have someone in the company stop to ask that question during the negotiations process, and just say, "If we take on this title and pay you for the privilege of licensing it, please guarantee uncut prints to us or ones that have not been edited in terms of program content."

Jack, I can't and won't argue with that point. I even alluded to the same thing in my post. Yes, it would seem they dropped the ball on several occasions with that particular point. Fortunately they have seemed to rectify the situation. At least as it concerns the products I buy from them this has been the case. Can't speak to the encoding issue at all.

Originally Posted by JoeDoakes

Anyone who cares about classic tv in general should know that they are very lucky to have Shout. I think that, with Shout, the glass is over 95% full. As Mr. Spock would say, Live Long and Prosper.

That's the way I see it too, Joe.



Gary "once Shout rescued LITB and finished off FKB, two of the greatest sitcoms in American history, they had my appreciation for life" O.

 

[Rob_Ray]

I absolutely agree with Gary's signature statement and will add that if they manage to finish off Marcus Welby, M.D. my appreciation will be boundless.

 

[Jack P]

I'm not subscribing to all the negative things, but there again, this "I hope no one from Shout is offended by this" comment is to me indicative of the strange knee-jerk reaction to shield Shout from the kind of criticism we take for granted when talking about other studios. Does this mean there's a fear that if there's criticism of Shout! in a message board, they'll take umbrage and not release anything more out of spite? That's what it comes off as to me. "At least Shout has not been selling often unwatchable "collector prints"" Is this supposed to be a reference to Timeless? Well it seems to me that Timeless has no control over that if Universal won't let those titles in question out of the vault and force Timeless to scrounge up discarded 16mm prints from around the world just to get *some* kind of DVD release out for a title that we know would otherwise never see the light of day.

 

[Rob_Ray]

I'm not subscribing to all the negative things, but there again, this "I hope no one from Shout is offended by this" comment is to me indicative of the strange knee-jerk reaction to shield Shout from the kind of criticism we take for granted when talking about other studios. Does this mean there's a fear that if there's criticism of Shout! in a message board, they'll take umbrage and not release anything more out of spite? That's what it comes off as to me.

In addition to all the reasons given earlier (Shout Factory isn't a studio and has to take what the studios give them, etc.) one reason we say "I hope no one from Shout is offended by this" is that we realize Shout is a very, very small company and they not only read these posts but respond and actively participate in these discussions. So unlike the big, faceless monothilic studios, Shout is perceived as a company that cares and one that can easily take its marbles and go home as far as joining in on the Home Theatre Forum discussions is concerned.

 

[Gary OS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob_Ray

In addition to all the reasons given earlier (Shout Factory isn't a studio and has to take what the studios give them, etc.) one reason we say "I hope no one from Shout is offended by this" is that we realize Shout is a very, very small company and they not only read these posts but respond and actively participate in these discussions. So unlike the big, faceless monothilic studios, Shout is perceived as a company that cares and one that can easily take its marbles and go home as far as joining in on the Home Theatre Forum discussions is concerned.

I was going to suggest that this was the reason for the comment. Thanks for confirming that, Rob. And for the record, I do think that's a valid point for this board. Cliff coming in here and talking to us is something that we don't see from most of the big boys. Some will make a comment or two in a thread about one of their upcoming releases, but they don't get into the detail that we've received from Cliff recently. So while I'm not against healthy discussion and even disagreement, I hope things always remain respectful (unlike the recent events on the Film board).



Gary "of course that should be the standing rule at all times, regardless of what is being discussed - right?" O.

 

[MCCLOUD]

Everyone of course is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that I agree with Gary in this case. There is a big difference in Shout and major studios like CBS and Universal. CBS and Universal own their shows. In my opinion there is no excuse for CBS, Universal, etc to have cut episodes, missing episodes, bad video/audio quality etc. They own the shows and they could probably put, with maybe a rare exception, any of their shows out complete with all episodes in great video/audio quality. They also have the money and resources to do it if they choose. Shout and others such as Timeless are at the mercy of the big studios in that they have to liscense the shows out and have to take what transfers the studios give them. Shout, etc. also don't have the finances avialable that the major studios have. As for me, I love Shout! Shout has done an excellent job in my opinion. Thanks to Shout 3 Seasons of Dragnet are out. Speaking of Dragnet, when I emailed them about the missing footage in the pilot movie, they mailed me a replacement disc with the missing footage even though I told them I hadn't yet purchased the Season 2 set! Talk about great service!We have all 5 Seasons of That Girl thanks to Shout! We have 4 Seasons of Adam-12 and Season 6 hopefully in early 2012! We have 4 seasons of Ironside thanks to Shout! Without Shout you would only be looking at most of Season 1 of Ironside by Universal just like other 1 and done by Universal like Dragnet, Adam-12, Mcmillan and Wife, Kojak, The Equalizer, amd MCCLOUD! Shout is soon releasing Kojak Season 2 and Police Story. Also thanks to Shout you have The Bill Cosby Show, both seasons, Tales Of The Gold Monkey, and many seasons of Mr. ED. Shout has also started releasing some movies such as Rio Conchos/Take A Hard Ride double feature. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. As for me, I have a very high opinion of Shout! Thanks Shout! God Bless! Robert

 

[Jack P]

Mind you, I'm not running down the areas where Shout deserves praise. Rescuing "Dragnet" and fast-tracking it to completion was one of the best things I've ever seen, and I'm also glad "Bill Cosby Show" was finally finished and "Ironside" at least got through the end of the Barbara Anderson era. I've praised them for when they deserve praise, but I just can't accept the notion that their mistakes can be more easily forgiven than a mistake made by the "big" companies.

 

[The Obsolete Man]

Mind you, I'm not running down the areas where Shout deserves praise. Rescuing "Dragnet" and fast-tracking it to completion was one of the best things I've ever seen, and I'm also glad "Bill Cosby Show" was finally finished and "Ironside" at least got through the end of the Barbara Anderson era. I've praised them for when they deserve praise, but I just can't accept the notion that their mistakes can be more easily forgiven than a mistake made by the "big" companies.

I'd say they're slightly more forgivable because of the extra layer of red tape a company like Shout has to go through. CBS/Paramount, for example, owns The Fugitive. It's sitting in their vaults, they have access to it at any time to do whatever they please with it. With Shout, they get what the companies hand them. If Fox hands them syndicated prints of Rhoda, that's what they have to deal with. And if Shout goes back and asks about complete prints, Fox can give them the "well, this is all we have" excuse, and that's that. Shout doesn't have the ability to go digging for complete prints because they don't own the show. And if Fox were interested in the show, they would have released it themselves. Same goes for Timeless having to dig up third hand complete prints. They just don't have access to the originals, and the big companies don't care.

 

[Neil Brock]

Too funny:

 


Four minutes -- FOUR MINUTES -- later:

 

 

 

 

Seriously, four minutes! Not only are they WILLING to tell you about paying $100 for an episode on VHS 25 years ago, they're actually WAITING, sitting there right now, poised over their keyboards, ready to POUNCE at a moment's notice!

 

Somehow, "LOL" just doesn't say enough!

 

 

 

How about this? On those $10 - $15 VHS tapes I have complete, perfect quality Wonder Years off ABC, Murphy Brown off CBS, unsped, full-length with original music Fugitive and WKRP in Cincinnati, Ben Casey, Dr. Kildare, Mr. Novak and hundreds of other shows that will never see the light of day on DVD. Many great shows that ran in the 70s & 80s, both new and in cable reruns. So, you're right, LOL doesn't begin describe it.

 

[Gary OS]

Why am I suddenly having pictures and thoughts of Gollum fill my mind?
Gary "I'm fine with everything I've got so no amount of gigging is going to work" O.

 

[MatthewA]

Mind you, I'm not running down the areas where Shout deserves praise. Rescuing "Dragnet" and fast-tracking it to completion was one of the best things I've ever seen, and I'm also glad "Bill Cosby Show" was finally finished and "Ironside" at least got through the end of the Barbara Anderson era. I've praised them for when they deserve praise, but I just can't accept the notion that their mistakes can be more easily forgiven than a mistake made by the "big" companies.

I'm one of Shout's biggest supporters but I can understand the frustration of the original poster. And I have been as hard on them for their mistakes as I have been supportive of them when they get things right (I feel the same way about Apple: my Mac is almost like a part of my body but as an editor I am mortified by the Final Cut Pro X debacle). They have to fight to get shows at all and fight more to get them uncut and to re-license the music. But because they're willing to do this they should be held to a higher standard. Understanding that they have fewer resources to draw from than the studios is not the same as excusing it, but it does put it in perspective. If the studios turn on Shout! after being reasonable with them in the past, it's not Shout!'s fault. I paid a pretty penny for Columbia House VHS tapes of some shows. I still have them because they have uncut episodes that were cut on DVD (and vice versa), and in one case, episodes that are not on DVD. I can't even give away VHS tapes of anything anymore. I only paid that price because that was the only way to get uncut episodes of TV shows, unless you taped them yourself or had ways to get them that we don't discuss here. It was that or endure the butchery of the syndicated versions. Or go without. But times were good then. Now people are seriously afraid of the devaluation of the dollar. DVD is not going to grow any more than it has, and I don't think it's unfair to expect the prices to come down. There are likely many people who didn't buy shows that failed to move units on DVD who would have if they had been less expensive. As for the actual shows, most of the ones I want are out in some form. Outside of the few new shows I watch (Mad Men, Futurama, and Modern Family are the only ones) what I want to see is completion of stalled and incomplete shows, and mea culpas for screwed-up ones. I would be surprised, albeit pleasantly, to see any serious push to get old shows on Blu-Ray (after what it took to get it all on DVD, if we ever see The Mary Tyler Moore Show on Blu-Ray I will drop dead from a heart attack; if they don't botch it in any way I'll spontaneously combust).