Anyone feel a bit letdown by Shout! Select? (2 Viewers)

[cliff mac]

Designing Women is coming.

We do not have the rights to more seasons of FACTS OF LIFE, MR. B or RHODA.

Originally Posted by Kasey

Last year at this time, I could not sing the praises of Shout loud enough. Patty Duke, Father Knows Best, Rhoda, Designing Women, Facts of Life and All In the Family were all on the horizon. I am very grateful for all they've done for Classic TV lovers, but yes I do agree it looks like many shows are stalled (Rhoda, Facts, DW). They were on a roll, and I realize that it's the people at Fox and Sony that are not playing fair by holding out on rights and licensing, but it does get frustrating when I am more than willing to spend $ (even if all the aforementioned become Select titles). Hopefully Hazel will be announced soon as well as continuations of the others ("When it rains, it pours" perhaps?). Looking forward to a bountiful 4th quarter from them.


I have bought some WB MOD discs, and had no problems with any of them. I keep hoping they'll announce more TV titles like It's a Living, Mama's Family, Alice, Eight is Enough, etc.

 

[smithb]

Originally Posted by cliff mac
Designing Women is coming.

We do not have the rights to more seasons of FACTS OF LIFE, MR. B or RHODA.

I would imagine Cliff could set the record straight if I stated anything inaccurately. It was based on just my opionion of the situation and not insider knowledge.

 

[ToddR2]

13 episodes left, and Rhoda joins the unfinished pile. Wow. Since Cliff has been kind enough to answer questions about most of Shout's unfinished shows, perhaps he'll share with us what the future of Marcus Welby, M.D. looks like.

 

[TVonDVDJunkie05]

We do not have the rights to more seasons of FACTS OF LIFE, MR. B or RHODA.

So you don't have the rights to any more seasons but the key question that remains unanswered is: Do you plan on acquiring any more seasons of these shows or at least try to acquire the remaining seasons?! Are you stating to us that these shows are finished, as far as Shout! Factory is concerned, no more releases coming ever?!


Looks like Rhoda fans are getting shafted, 1 friggin' season left to finish the series and now it appears it will never get released?! I wonder how much FOX is asking for to sub-license the rights to this final season and why can't they reach a deal now that they are at the end?! They were able to reach a deal on the earlier seasons yet for some reason cannot for the final season??

 

[smithb]

Originally Posted by TVonDVDJunkie05 I wonder how much FOX is asking for to sub-license the rights to this final season and why can't they reach a deal now that they are at the end?! They were able to reach a deal on the earlier seasons yet for some reason cannot for the final season??

I would imagine if the earlier seasons had sold well enough this wouldn't be an issue. The first three seasons were widely distributed. The fourth season went Select, which probably wasn't a good sign about past or future sales projections. It obviously looks like the last season fell through or was too risky to be a loss. What's with the entitlement attitude? If enough had fans purchased the earlier seasons I bet they would be looking at a fifth season release (baring some licensing issue), but it doesn't look they they did or the fan base wasn't big enough so no more releases. No one was shafted, it is simple business economics.


Personally, I became a fan of "Life and Legend of Wyatt Earp" after picking up Season One as a blind buy. Infinity had rights to all seasons. Season Two was scheduled for release a few times but it never materialized. It just wasn't profitable enough for them to continue and they lost the rights. I heard recently that Timeless was in negotiations to pick up the rights but that now seems to have fallen through due to licensing costs being too high I guess for projected sales. It's a bummer because I would really like to own all of them. I don't feel shafted. I'm happy to have at least had an opportunity to experience even one season. As they say, especially in this hobby, it's better to look at the glass half-full then half-empty.


You know Nick, if you think this business is so easy why don't you start up a small business and show them how it is done, so all us fans can get all the seasons for all our favorite shows.

 

[TVonDVDJunkie05]

You know Nick, if you think this business is so easy why don't you start up a small business and show them how it is done, so all us fans can get all the seasons for all our favorite shows.

You know that's not possible since we are dealing with greedy conglomerates here whose sole purpose is making as much profit as they can, which means crazy markups on products that are not worth as much as they sell them for. If you look at my post above you will see that I asked 'how much money does Shout! Factory need to make off a product in order to consider it successful and merit further releases?!'. The reason I asked this is to try and gauge just how greedy the major studios are- the more money per release that Universal, FOX, Sony, etc. want, the higher the price Shout! has to charge and the higher their profit margin per release has to be in order to recoup their costs AND give the big boys their share. The end result of this is what we are witnessing now- series abandoned or in some instances not acquired at all (Maude) and sky high prices for series that they do attempt to release (Simon & Simon, Kojak), all so the conglomerates can get their big piece of the pie since they are unwilling to settle for a smaller one. It may seem as though I am blaming Shout! Factory for stalled series but in actual fact my anger and frustration is aimed squarely at the greedy conglomerates who own these series that Shout! is releasing. Their greediness is what is preventing Shout! from acquiring the rights to certain series or continuing with ones they have already acquired.


To sum it up: the reason Shout! has not completed certain series or not acquired others is because the studios are demanding too much in exchange for the rights to release the series on DVD. If the asking price was 'reasonable' and not overly greedy then I am fairly certain that some (or all) of the stalled shows would have seen more releases by now. There are probably some series where sales actually were terrible and thus made further releases impossible without incurring losses but I think those are the exception and not the rule. I think the following series could be completed *if* the licensing costs were more reasonable (taking into account popularity of the series, size of fanbase, etc. and not just basing their asking price on maximum profit):

Adam-12

The Facts of Life

Mad About You

Marcus Welby, M.D.

Mr. Belvedere

Rhoda

Simon & Simon

 

[Jack P]

I seem to be detecting a trend here where *every* series that is a Fox property is running into this logjam of jacked-up rights to the licensor that results in a stall-out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's a single Fox property that's still getting released from Shout at the moment since we know that "Paper Chase", "Peyton Place", "Room 222" and now "Rhoda" have fallen by the wayside.


I'd also remind people that VCI has not given us the second season of "Burke's Law" which last had a release in late 2008 and it would seem that Fox (which controls the Four Star Catalog) is responsible for that as well.

 

[Gary OS]

Gotta go with Brad on this one. While none of us know the specifics (except perhaps those that actually work for Shout or other companies and/or studios), I'm pretty sure its about lower returns as series progress from season to season.

Gary "as Brad said, simple business economics" O.

 

[Gary OS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack P

I seem to be detecting a trend here where *every* series that is a Fox property is running into this logjam of jacked-up rights to the licensor that results in a stall-out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's a single Fox property that's still getting released from Shout at the moment since we know that "Paper Chase", "Peyton Place", "Room 222" and now "Rhoda" have fallen by the wayside.


I'd also remind people that VCI has not given us the second season of "Burke's Law" which last had a release in late 2008 and it would seem that Fox (which controls the Four Star Catalog) is responsible for that as well.

That's a valid point, Jack. And conversely, I think Universal has shown its willing to license out as much as any other major. Both Shout and Timeless have been able to work with them.



Gary "the other studio that hasn't seemed to keen on 'renting' stuff out is CBS/P" O.

 

[Jack P]

Originally Posted by Gary OS
That's a valid point, Jack. And conversely, I think Universal has shown its willing to license out as much as any other major. Both Shout and Timeless have been able to work with them.

Not to mention VEI which set an Olympic record for fast-tracking "McMillan And Wife" to completion. A year ago at this time the show was in its fifth year of "one and done" status and now it will have it's entire *Six* season run out in August! To me, that's the most incredible achievement for any series over the last year with "Dragnet's" fast-tracking to completion by Shout coming in second.

 

[Gary OS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack P

Not to mention VEI which set an Olympic record for fast-tracking "McMillan And Wife" to completion. A year ago at this time the show was in its fifth year of "one and done" status and now it will have it's entire *Six* season run out in August! To me, that's the most incredible achievement for any series over the last year with "Dragnet's" fast-tracking to completion by Shout coming in second.

Looking at Universal I've gotta go with Shout's Leave it to Beaver release from last year. That show had been stalled out for 4+ years when we got the complete boxed set. Easily my pick for the best release of 2010.



Gary "and Timeless really has done some nice work with a few NBC/Uni westerns" O.

 

[smithb]

Originally Posted by TVonDVDJunkie05
You know that's not possible since we are dealing with greedy conglomerates here whose sole purpose is making as much profit as they can, which means crazy markups on products that are not worth as much as they sell them for. If you look at my post above you will see that I asked 'how much money does Shout! Factory need to make off a product in order to consider it successful and merit further releases?!'. The reason I asked this is to try and gauge just how greedy the major studios are- the more money per release that Universal, FOX, Sony, etc. want, the higher the price Shout! has to charge and the higher their profit margin per release has to be in order to recoup their costs AND give the big boys their share. The end result of this is what we are witnessing now- series abandoned or in some instances not acquired at all (Maude) and sky high prices for series that they do attempt to release (Simon & Simon, Kojak), all so the conglomerates can get their big piece of the pie since they are unwilling to settle for a smaller one. It may seem as though I am blaming Shout! Factory for stalled series but in actual fact my anger and frustration is aimed squarely at the greedy conglomerates who own these series that Shout! is releasing. Their greediness is what is preventing Shout! from acquiring the rights to certain series or continuing with ones they have already acquired.


To sum it up: the reason Shout! has not completed certain series or not acquired others is because the studios are demanding too much in exchange for the rights to release the series on DVD. If the asking price was 'reasonable' and not overly greedy then I am fairly certain that some (or all) of the stalled shows would have seen more releases by now. There are probably some series where sales actually were terrible and thus made further releases impossible without incurring losses but I think those are the exception and not the rule. I think the following series could be completed *if* the licensing costs were more reasonable (taking into account popularity of the series, size of fanbase, etc. and not just basing their asking price on maximum profit):

Adam-12

The Facts of Life

Mad About You

Marcus Welby, M.D.

Mr. Belvedere

Rhoda

Simon & Simon

I have to say it definitely appeared to me like you were picking on Shout (or generalization of the small outfit). My apologies if I mistook your point. There are times when arguments can be made for fans "getting the shaft" with regards to unnecessary changes to a product, or lack of effort on a studios part to deliver the product that it could be, and in those cases they may be warranted.


However, there is also an "entitlement" attitude that seems to creep in every once in a while. Such as a series being completed even though it may be losing money just to satisfy the fans that bought the early seasons. Or that they should put out all seasons at once with no regard to the financial risk so fans can ensure they get all seasons. Some fans choose not to buy any seasons until all have been released and then wonder why it gets stalled early then stopped for good. That is some of what I thought I sensed and don't happen to agree with and so was responding.

Now maybe studios and others involved are being extra greedy, but it is also up to the fans to create the demand by buying the product. So even though the fan base may be loyal and craving more product, just maybe it isn't big enough to sustain the types of releases we would like to see from a long term perspective. Especially, in the older series. Some here have been collecting for many years and others so long that they've bridged various formats. While a fan, I've only been collection TV on DVD for a few years now, and the more I see of this market, the more I just appreciate having what I have. No complaints here.

 

[DaveHof]

Even though it was not addressed at me, I thought the "What's with the entitlement attitude" comment was unfair. I share that poster's frustration. When four seasons of a show with a five-season run are released, and the fifth season is pulled, fans have every right to be upset. To me this isn't that much different than releasing a 100-minute film on DVD, but without the last 20 minutes. No one would tell fans of that movie to be grateful they got what they got, and stop whining about the rest of it.


Incomplete runs, syndicated episode cuts, wholesale music changes - it's never easy, is it? And taking this back to Shout! - perhaps it hurts a little more when they disappoint us, because they're the last stop for a show before it lands in the classic TV cemetery. Has any show that Shout! abandoned been picked up by another distributor? I'll gladly eat crow if that has happened but I don't think so.

 

[vnisanian2001]

One thing that really ticks me off is when people who claim to be fans of a show that they love keep saying over and over again that they're gonna buy the sets when they become available, but then end up never doing so. It's like they make promises they can't keep.

 

[Jack P]

Originally Posted by DaveHof
Has any show that Shout! abandoned been picked up by another distributor? I'll gladly eat crow if that has happened but I don't think so.

I think "Here's Lucy" would be the only exception since Shout! did the "best of" set and then MPI picked up the series itself for season releases. But you're right when shows stall out with the independent labels that's when you have to think there's no hope left for a complete run ever.

 

[DeWilson]

Originally Posted by cliff mac


No one stand to be in business with poor sales. Of course Warner can do it much easier because they are a big studio. We are a privately held company. We actually manufacture the discs and they send you burned DVD-Rs.


We have tried to make the consumers happy by continuing to release show that retailers will no long carry. If the sales on a title are low, we can't continue to put the show out. We can't stand to lose money like a major studio can.


It cost a lot of money to put out a show like IRONSIDE. It's authoring for six discs and we have to purchase masters for each episode from the studio. If only 100 people buy it, we just lost money.


We like to rescue shows that the studios don't continue, but remember, they didn't finish it due to low sales and if we pick it up and we sell less copies than they did, it's really hard to continue to release it and be a profitable company.

The SHOUT! Select program is a good idea - but what's wrong with expanding distribution to more on-line outlets? I'm not talking 3rd parties selling on AMAZON ,but wholesaling to them and other online retailers.

 

[smithb]

Originally Posted by DaveHof
Even though it was not addressed at me, I thought the "What's with the entitlement attitude" comment was unfair. I share that poster's frustration. When four seasons of a show with a five-season run are released, and the fifth season is pulled, fans have every right to be upset. To me this isn't that much different than releasing a 100-minute film on DVD, but without the last 20 minutes. No one would tell fans of that movie to be grateful they got what they got, and stop whining about the rest of it.


Incomplete runs, syndicated episode cuts, wholesale music changes - it's never easy, is it? And taking this back to Shout! - perhaps it hurts a little more when they disappoint us, because they're the last stop for a show before it lands in the classic TV cemetery. Has any show that Shout! abandoned been picked up by another distributor? I'll gladly eat crow if that has happened but I don't think so.

Maybe the comment was unfair to Nick in this instance. Maybe I mistook his intent. My comment came from my own frustration of seeing similarly worded posts that show a type of attitude that I find disturbing (just my opinion). In this instance I commented on it.


As far as relating an incomplete TV series to a 100 minute movie missing the last 20 minutes as an analogy. I have to say, I don't get that at all. Yes, there are a few series that have a running story arc throughout, but I'd think the majority are individual story lines for each episode that can be enjoyed independently. That can't be said about missing the cilmax of a single story line in a movie. Another way to view it, we happily watched a TV series with one episode a week. I couldn't imagine watching 10 minutes of a 100 minute movies once a week for 10 weeks and enjoying it. We have a difference of opinion in this regard.


Edit: Just curious if the last season is not released (most likely due to poor sales) is it the company that at least attempted to give the fans the show at fault? Should they take a loss and possibly go out of business just to finish a series? Is it the fault of other fans for not supporting it, or were there just not enough fans of the same show? Are you just venting frustration or are you blaming someone?


As I've stated before, I would absolutely prefer to get some of a favorite show then none at all. And while yes I would like to see more finished or not stalled, I accept this as just a fact of nature in this hobby and look forward to the release of another show.

 

[pickfair]

No offense, but I completely disagree with you. I'm a business owner and I can tell you confidently that if I ran my business like all these Hollywood types, I'd be out of business in a heartbeat and the reason is simple: my company can be replaced easily if I give bad service. All the people on this forum and the population at large, myself included, what can we do? How do we replace these people? Boycott? Won't work, too many people think like you. I am not dissing you, I used to think the same way, I have so many unfinished shows that it hurts.


Every business needs to make money. I get that. Everybody here gets it even if it doesn't seem like it sometimes. But Hollywood is greedy beyond reason. You are never, I repeat, never going to convince me that Sony or Paramount or.....can't make money by releasing the complete run of a TV show.

Shout is one of the better companies out there ( I wish they were more Canada friendly, I really want Simon & Simon) and I feel that if they had the rights for any given show's complete run, they would release them. I hope anyway.


If no name companies (by Hollywood standards)like Alliance, VEJ and Mills Creek can release complete runs of :


-Gimme a break, kate and allie, hardcastle and mccormick

-Beastmaster, Andromeda, earth final conflict, Lexx

-Renegade-Hunter-Commish......................................................................................................................


then the big companies can release the remaining seasons of all the stalled shows already discussed previously and make some money. Its called service, something they don't care about. For lesser titles, they should take the approach like the 3 companies I mentioned. Better than being stalled. I am sure they can be creative and think of other alternatives to make their clients happy, without losing money. They don't care because they are too busy thinking up ways to justify a re-re-re-re-re-release of Superman or Terminator or.......


I am aware that a lot of people here bitch and complain about the 3 companies I mentioned above because the cases are crappy, no special features, picture quality not as good as it can be.....I say too bad. I play them in my PS3 and I've never had a problem with any of them. I just picked up Renegade complete collection for $25 and 21 jump street for$25 from amazon. The sets are not perfect (always the damn music changes) but I would much rather have this than still wait for Anchor bay to release them, which would have been never. And I paid more for just one season from Anchor bay than the complete series. I paid $45 for complete series of Hunter. How can you beat that?


If they had released a complete run or a nicely priced complete series box set of Night Court, Perfect strangers, the Fall guy, Knots Landing etc....and never introduced the volume 1 and volume 2 crap (further proof of pure Greed), I think they would have found a more receptive crowd and we wouldn't be having these discussions today. They blew it just like they blew the music industry.



Last thing, these are the same companies that cancel tv shows without giving us a proper ending. People have been burned too many times by this that they now watch reality television instead. Makes you realize why most scripted shows have lousy ratings nowadays. Imagine if DALLAS had been cancelled before we found out who shot JR. Imagine no ending of Lost (even if most people hated it, at least it is an ending as opposed to Heroes). Imagine if we never found out who killed Monks' wife.Now imagine if the DVD releases had stalled at that point.Same idea as to why people have stopped buying single seasons: we know that the odds that they get completed are slim.


This is just my opinion.

 

[smithb]

Sorry Jim, but as a thread about Shout and the Select program. my comments never had anything to do with the big studios of Hollywood that you reference, just the small operators (e.g., Shout and Timeless). The big studios have an entirely different agenda as many large corporations do. With them it's not just can we make a profit, it's will the return be large enough to make the effort even worth considering. Who cares about the fan. But the large studios are unshakeable, take a stand and boycott the studio because you don't like their distribution choice (split seasons), music replacements, stalled seasons, and what you will usually get is more stalled seasons and less series released (with a few exceptions). They don't need this market like we need them to release product.


So as you say "I used to think the same way" I can turn that around in the same way. I used to get frustrated over these things, but I found that the frustration didn't get me any anywhere other then to have negative thoughts about the hobby when the better use of my time was to just enjoy what has been released. In a sense, my collection of 250+ TV series would take me over 7 years to watch at 2 hours a night without repeating. Add in another 3 years for my movie collection. Sure I have a few missing gaps, sure there are some favorites unreleased, but it does no good to have a collection I can never get through either. And I'll continue to say, I'd much rather have some of something to enjoy then none at all. Other then a few series I completely do not get the premise that all seasons have to be released to be able to enjoy a show. And the more people stay away using that kind of logic the more series we are going to go without. So I will continue to support individual season releases as they come out with the idea I am improving on the chances for more seasons and series to come in the future. I see no reason to carry around negativity with this hobby when there is still so much to enjoy about it.


Just my opinion.

 

[Joe Tor1]

Originally Posted by pickfair



Last thing, these are the same companies that cancel tv shows without giving us a proper ending. People have been burned too many times by this that they now watch reality television instead. Makes you realize why most scripted shows have lousy ratings nowadays. Imagine if DALLAS had been cancelled before we found out who shot JR. Imagine no ending of Lost (even if most people hated it, at least it is an ending as opposed to Heroes). Imagine if we never found out who killed Monks' wife.Now imagine if the DVD releases had stalled at that point.Same idea as to why people have stopped buying single seasons: we know that the odds that they get completed are slim.


This is just my opinion.

I know this is about Shout! And, I've already given them a favorable rating... but THIS (above) is an excellent point!

THIS is why I will no longer be suckered into watching NEW SHOWS.

NBC cancels HEROES when a new storyline has opened up -- and then expects us to watch... THE CAPE??!!

Thankfully, we're not as "dumb" as they think we are -- and THE CAPE is gone, probably preforming to less than a final (even abbreviated) story-ending season of HEROES would have done!

And how badly was FLASH FORWARD handled by ABC. I was hoping for it to be the next LOST. But, instead, they've "lost" me!

I wanted to watch HAPPY TOWN (Does anyone remember that?) -- and did for a week or two -- but am glad I did not waste my time. I can't imagine they wrapped it up in any sort of satisfying manner.


If you're going to commit to the ongoing storyline, have a plan in place to end it satisfactorily, even if early cancellation is necessary.

Otherwise, be more episodic, like the older classic series.

Okay, sorry for the digression... back to Shout!