Anyone else dissaponted that DSOTM is not coming on DVDA (1 Viewer)

[Michael St. Clair]

Every Pink Floyd thread turns into a format flame war.
Both formats have tons of problems. Frankly, I don't see any meaningful 'momentum' on either side as far as selling product to high-res consumers.
Some of you guys remind me of nasty, spiteful little children who constantly have pissing contests about whether Playstation or Nintendo is better.
Get over yourselves. Keep this up and we might as well shut this area down and go to Steve Hoffman's forums instead.

 

[John Kotches]

Lee,

This is a complete lie as Linn, Shanling, Zenith, Pioneer and many others chose CES to announce their new players.

You have conveniently overlooked that the Linn (Unidisk 1.1), Pioneer (Don't recall the model #) and one of the Zenith (DV-319 I think) players announced are universal. So too were the Denon (DV-2900), Bel Canto (tentatively "Player"), Lexicon (RT-10), MSB (Super Digital Audio Player or some similar name), McCormack (UDP-1) players to name a few more. I referred to them as universals which is an accurate depiction of their capability. Which part of that is a "complete lie" as you put it?
I'm sure others besides Justin are capable of judging the accuracy of what I've reported. Your opinion is so far beyond biased as to be meaningless.
I guess you didn't catch that the 2nd Hi-Res Zenith player was DVD-A/DVD-V, with no SACD on that unit. Arcam also demonstrated two DVD-A/DVD-V only players as well.
Then there were car units from Pioneer, Alpine and at least one other manufacturer that were DVD-A capable. No SACD on them either.
I don't know whether the Shanling player is SACD only or not, since I didn't see them, nor did I comment on them.
Regards,

 

[Rich Malloy]

Both formats have tons of problems. Frankly, I don't see any meaningful 'momentum' on either side as far as selling product to high-res consumers.

I don't see any great momentum, generally speaking, either. Except "as far as selling product to high-res consumers".
As usual, these threads have proven to be quite a learning experience for me, and one thing I think I've learned from many of the posts lamenting the lack of DVD-A for this title (and arguing on behalf of DVD-A for it) is that the argument is primarily on behalf of the low-res surround mixes. That is, the idea of a surround mix in a lossy format (DD/DTS) played back via DVD-V players is what they want first and formost. Even the higher resolution two-channel PCM "Red Book" mix is not of interest, much less the much higher resolution SACD or DVD-A mixes.
So, I very nearly agree with the statement I quoted above, except I would change it to read "I don't see any meaningful 'momentum' on either side as far as selling product to low-res consumers."
But, as far as the high-res consumers are concerned, the so-called "audiophile market", it seems that SACD does have the edge. Believe me, I'm thrilled at the possibility of hearing DSotM in surround - and it may well become my preferred mix - but I'm even more thrilled to finally hear these tracks resolved in a format capable of doing them justice, of giving them the expressiveness and naturalness that only vinyl previously afforded. It seems to me that most SACD-first folk have this (high-resolution) as their main priority.
Conversely, it seems that many (certainly not all!) DVD-A folk do not, and are satisfied with the lossy surround formats their DVD-V players are capable of decoding.... just so long as it's a surround mix they're listening to. I sorta doubt this crowd would be thrilled by the (ack!) mono SACD of "Saxophone Collosus", whereas most of us SACDers consider this Doug Sax remastered classic among the finer discs available to us.
Of course, none of this resolves what's become the main issue of the thread (which format is best for Pink Floyd?), but I wonder if I'm on the right track when it comes to the basic priorities of the majority of those on either side of the format divide?

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Rich,
The only titles selling well enough to convince me that there is momentum (growth) are the Stones titles. And they don't count, as virtually nobody is buying them for high-resolution. Hence my statement.
Likewise, the "audiophiles" I know locally still have their attention focused squarely at vinyl and well-mastered CD. Hence, no momentum there either.
If either format wants to convince me it has "momentum", these things will have to change.

 

[Philip Hamm]

As usual, these threads have proven to be quite a learning experience for me, and one thing I think I've learned from many of the posts lamenting the lack of DVD-A for this title (and arguing on behalf of DVD-A for it) is that the argument is primarily on behalf of the low-res surround mixes. That is, the idea of a surround mix in a lossy format (DD/DTS) played back via DVD-V players is what they want first and formost. Even the higher resolution two-channel PCM "Red Book" mix is not of interest, much less the much higher resolution SACD or DVD-A mixes.
So, I very nearly agree with the statement I quoted above, except I would change it to read "I don't see any meaningful 'momentum' on either side as far as selling product to low-res consumers."
But, as far as the high-res consumers are concerned, the so-called "audiophile market", it seems that SACD does have the edge. Believe me, I'm thrilled at the possibility of hearing DSotM in surround - and it may well become my preferred mix - but I'm even more thrilled to finally hear these tracks resolved in a format capable of doing them justice, of giving them the expressiveness and naturalness that only vinyl previously afforded. It seems to me that most SACD-first folk have this (high-resolution) as their main priority.
Conversely, it seems that many (certainly not all!) DVD-A folk do not, and are satisfied with the lossy surround formats their DVD-V players are capable of decoding.... just so long as it's a surround mix they're listening to. I sorta doubt this crowd would be thrilled by the (ack!) mono SACD of "Saxophone Collosus", whereas most of us SACDers consider this Doug Sax remastered classic among the finer discs available to us.
Of course, none of this resolves what's become the main issue of the thread (which format is best for Pink Floyd?), but I wonder if I'm on the right track when it comes to the basic priorities of the majority of those on either side of the format divide?

Wow, I wonder what thread you're reading.

 

[Rich Malloy]

If either format wants to convince me it has "momentum", these things will have to change.

At this stage, those of us with SACD/DVD-A players yet remain "early-adopters". No doubt about that. The momentum you require will likely take time before it's gained sufficient velocity to sway you. But I think it ultimately will, hopefully both on SACD and DVD-A.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I disagree. I think there's a great deal of momentum among this community for SACD. Just look at the Steve Hoffman forums and (ack!) audio asylum. By comparison, there's precious little discussion of DVD-A.

Absolutely! And look at Positive Feedback's excellent web site where the talk is all about mods on SACD players and gaining momentum.
And read just about any story in Stereophile and Absolute Sound. About the only neutral story I have seen was from Mike Fremer, a decided LP freak, in SGHT.
Look at the independent labels, FAR more for SACD than DVDA.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Too much is being made of the "no SACD sticker" on the cover of the Rolling Stones releases, as that didn't keep it a secret from those of us who would be interested in the format. In fact, though I'm not a huge Stones fan, it was the runup to this release that finally got me serious about buying an SACD player (I owned nearly 20 hybrid discs before I even got an SACD player).

Amen, think about this from Sony's standpoint.

Do you want the Super Audio titles buried in an oft neglected "Hi rez" section of the record store?

No, minimize the SACD info on the outside and throw in a card explaining the format on the inside and get the copy in with all the rest of that band's albums.

More foot traffic, more sales, more momentum, more bands sign on, more titles, repeat.

Life is good. Super Audio is taking off.

 

[Yee-Ming]

Lest we forget, it also required that the outer packaging contain no mention of the titles being SACD capable. In addition, with the one title I purchased (I'm not a Stones fan), the only indicator about SACD was on the disc itself where a discretely placed SACD and DSD logo on the media.

curious. I was at HMV recently, and came across a compilation 2-disc set, which had the words "Digital Stream D(whatever it stands for)" across it as well. no other indicia of SACD though, in particular the logo. so was it or was it not an SACD?

BTW, there are hardly any SACDs or DVD-As in the local HMV. so much for a format war, more like BOTH are non-existent. I am now seriously wondering where I'm going to get my copy of DSotM when it comes out, perhaps online like where I get DVDs. does amazon.ca or amazon.co.uk stock hi-res formats?

 

[KeithH]

John said:

You have conveniently overlooked that the Linn (Unidisk 1.1), Pioneer (Don't recall the model #)

The Pioneer player is the DV-563A.
Yee-Ming,
I don't know about amazon.ca or amazon.co.uk, but amazon.com has some SACDs and DVD-Audio discs.

 

[Rich Malloy]

This has sorta drifted into a "bash DVD-A" thread, and I was wondering to myself last night whether I was making too big a deal out of this latest development. If this announcement reinforced the notion that DVD-A remains stalled while SACD continues to gather momentum, it's mostly based on the inference that EMI is "changing sides" because of the greater momentum of SACD. I think those of you who brought up the issue of Sony's subsidies to ABKCO, EMI, and others are essentially acknowledging that Sony is trying to build momentum by doing so, and has won a few successful coups because of it, but that otherwise it's a fairly balanced picture between the two formats.
So, this is what was on my mind when I read High Fidelity Review this morning, and specifically the reports from Groove Note records. We're talking "audiophile niche" here, but the Groove Note reps repeated something I've heard from other boutique labels over the past year:

At the reception, Ying Tan also revealed that Groove Note has dropped their plans for a DVD Audio release. Up until recently, Tan had been researching the logistics and costs associated with issuing one of the Groove Note albums in DVD Audio format.
While the increased costs over CD and SACD release were a concern, Ying Tan told us the big reason behind the decision was the reaction of his resellers. When he asked them about their interest in Groove Note DVD-A discs, "none of Groove Note's distributors or key disc dealers expressed any interest at all". So Tan concluded that with no interest in Groove Note DVD-A discs, "why do it at all?"

Full story here: http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=12185718
More DVD-A bashing? Not at all. Up until recently I was researching and demo'ing DVD-A players, but now I'm no longer convinced it will remain viable. I'm in a wait-and-see mode now, hoping for the best, but wondering if and when the DVD-A Forum will get serious about promoting the format. It may well be that they need to go after the audiophile crowd first, before trying to entice the mass market with a product that many of them don't even understand, much less desire.

 

[JordanS]

I think we all should pipe right down and enjoy the new SACD-------be thankful that we get this title on either format-------i am very, very, very thankful----

 

[Paul.S]

Michael St. Clair said:

LOL! Hear, hear.
Paul

 

[Wayne Bundrick]

Life is good. Super Audio is taking off.

Is it? How do you distinguish foot traffic for the CD layer from the SACD layer? Does it really mean Super Audio is taking off if everybody is buying the hybrid discs and listening to them on their CD players?

 

[robertLP]

Of course! Thousands of titles have been released in HDCD, and millions of people have bought HDCD-encoded CD's. This proves that HDCD has been an overwhelming hit!

Why, *everyone* has a HDCD-encoded CD player now, right?

SACD is almost at the point of HDCD's great success!

Rob

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Why, *everyone* has a HDCD-encoded CD player now, right?

This is not an appropriate analogy for several significant reasons:
1. HDCD never had the backing of 150+ record labels like SACD enjoys.
2. HDCD was a chip-based implementation and not an entire new format like Super Audio is.
3. HDCD proponents did not have billions on the line like Sony and Philips do. Plus they have great upside with future royalties if things continue to take off.
4. HDCD never attracted the major artists on superstar albums like Super Audio has and continues to do.
5. HDCD did not serve as a professional archive medium like DSD and become adopted by many recording studios.

 

[Wayne Bundrick]

I wouldn't categorize either SACD or DVD-A as "alive and well". Both could disappear off the face of the earth tomorrow and very very few people would notice.

 

[Wes]

Some of you guys remind me of nasty, spiteful little children who constantly have pissing contests about whether Playstation or Nintendo is better.

Playstation!
Wes

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Playstation or Nintendo

Which one is PCM based?

 

[Brian-W]

Which one is PCM based

Both of them actually...