Another receiver vs separates questions. (1 Viewer)

[Kevin. W]

When I first added a Rotel RMB-1066(5x70) to my Denon 1801(5x70w), what I heard was not an increase in audio levels but a more defined/expanded soundstage, a less strained top end and a better ability to hear detail at lower volumes. I would suggest you get a 3 channel amp just to keep the front soundstage the same. It maybe not as necessary for 2ch but for HT the center hands the majority of whats going on.

Kevin

 

[V JACKSON]

Ed, I just recently started using my "high" end Denon receiver as a pre/pro by adding 3 stereo amps bridged to mono across the front and a stereo amp for the rears and the difference is night and day. Now I have always loved the sound of Denon receivers as being smooth and warm, but after going seperates, the soundstage, imaging and dynamics just opened up incredibly. Center channel dialogue is much more inteligable at lower volume levels as well as sublte details in music, again at lower volume levels. I can truthfully say that I would be hard pressed to go back to just a receiver again.

 

[EdNichols]

Thanks Kevin, That helps me. I have plenty of volume with my receiver so I wondered if sound quality would improve with a separate amp at close to the same wattage.

V, Jackson
What amp did you go with?

 

[ChadLB]

Ed,
I added a Parasound HCA855a to my Pioneer and it gives a more defined/expanded soundstage like kevin mentioned.

But like he said the front 3 channels are more important than the rears for sound. So start with a 2 or 3 channel amp and add on.

 

[Jarrod]

I have a medium-sized room (15x18x10) and started my 5.1 setup with an 85wpc Yamaha receiver (RXV-995). I was reasonably happy with that - it sounded good, although maybe it didn't have quite as much oomph as my previous Pro-Logic-only Yamaha reciever (which was also 85wpc).

Knowing that I was missing at least a little something in the amp section, I later added an 85x5 power amp (H/K PA5800) to run the front soundstage and converted the receiver to pre/pro + surround channel amp duties. Same wattage rating, but I immediately noticed a very clear improvement in sound quality (more detail, clearer dialog) and a modest improvement in max (non-distorted) SPL.

I later came across a deal on a Marantz MM9000 (THX Ultra amp, manual says 170wpc x 5 though other sources have it rated at 150x5) and swapped out the H/K for it. Big difference in both max SPL and sound quality. Now I have SPL galore and much clearer dialog and effects everywhere (especially at higher volumes). Transient peaks now sound just as clear as the rest of the movie. It's kind of scary actually - I feel like I could damage my ears and not really know I was doing it because the equipment can dish it out without much if any audible strain...

What I would love to hear is from someone who went the next step past this scenario to swap out their reciever (being used only as pre/pro) for a "real" pre/pro. Did they experience notable improvements with the same amps?

It's a bit difficult to get this particular demo in a shop - usually separates are not sold at the same places as the mainstream receivers (or at the very least are relegated to a different room with speakers and other equipment more in line with that kind of budget). So it's tough to try and gauge how the pre/pro section in a reciever would stack up against something like a Rotel, Newcastle, B&K, or NAD pre/pro.

 

[TimGRA]

Jarrod,
My progression-
Pioneer 36tx with Paradigm Monitor 7
Pioneer 36tx with Parasound 2205 amp (what a difference)
Parasound 2500u Pre-pro Parasound 2205 amp

All steps showed an amazing difference in sound quality. The biggest was the step into all Parasound equipment. IM currently testing the Parasound pre-pro and waiting for the New Castle pre-pro to hit the street.

The debate I am having now is the fact that receivers are getting so much better, that maybe you just go with a high end to get all of the bells and whistles. That is why the New Castle piece is so appealing.

When you start talking separate pre-pros find a dealer that will let you take it home and try it. Your investing to much money. YOUR EARS not mine will tell you what you like. Trust them and go with it. Your looking into some great stuff!

 

[Chip E]

Going to B&K seperates was definately a upgrade to my ears. The Denon 5803 is one helluva receiver. I liked it alot. The headroom and quality of sound i gained going Ref50,Ref200.5,Ref200.2 is very noticable. I didn't want to waste money keeping the 5803 and adding amps. I just upgraded through my dealer to the seperates. You should hear "League Of Extrordinary Gentlemen" in the background as i'm typing this...holy shit, this room is lit up HARD!

ps. the PB2+ has something to do with it too

 

[Ryan Tsang]

Mark Butny:

How/where did you get your Classe processor at 50% off? Audiogon? Private sale?

 

[Brent M]

To anyone reading this, would the Outlaw Model 770 Power Amp(200w x 7) be a good match with my Pioneer Elite VSX-47TX? I'd really like to keep the 47TX instead of buying a new preamp/processor and I'm just wondering if it will do as good a job as a dedicated pre/pro. Any thoughts?

 

[Matt_Doug]

How 'bout a mass market receiver combined with a qualilty stereo pre-amp with an HT pass through. I have a Denon 3802 which I use to power surrround back speakers and as pre/pro for center and side surrounds. A Parasaound P/LD 1100 line drive stereo pre-amp which has no HT pass through but I did a work arround and use it on the front L&R. And a Parasound 1205a 5 channel amp. The sound of the stereo pre-amp/amp combo is better than the receiver/amp combo by leaps and bounds, not even close. I count the stereo pre-amp upgrade as the best I've made, with the amp a very close 2nd. Consider a stereo pre-amp w/HT pass through.

 

[Mike Butny]

Ryan

I got the classe half off becuase I bought it right off the shelf. It came with a 5 year warranty and is in new condition. I love classe components and usually I could only afford them when I get I deal like I did.

 

[WayneO]

Well I have a Onkyo TX-DS898(110Wx7)AVR. I brung home a Rotel 1075(120x5) and a Parasound 1205(140WPCx5)amp to see if I could notice a SQ difference. As much as I tried, I couldn't. The only thing I noticed was with the Parasound at louder volumes, the sound wasn't as strained or seem to thin out as much. So I returned them after the demo and I thought about it the next couple of months. I figured I could wait since it really wasn't that much of an improvement, not worth the $1000 or so to get a decent used 150-200WPCx5 amp. I thought about just a 2-channel amp since the center and rears had a recommended power rating of 120W RMS and I had 110 on the Onkyo. So last week I picked up a mint used Acurus A-150(2x150) for $280 since it looked like a great opportunity. I have generally again, not noticed any big SQ improvement, except I can now seem to tell a bigger difference when switching between the analog and digital output of my DVD player, in favor of the receiver. This wasn't really noticeable before and now it is, so maybe it is better than the Onkyo amp section or maybe I'm just hearing things.........Maybe in a couple months I'll pick up the 200Wx3 Acurus for the front and use the 150 for the rears.

 

[EdNichols]

Thanks Wayne. Keep me posted. This is very interesting considering some others have said it made such a big difference going to separates. But that may be because of the wattage difference.

 

[Paul.S]

Good thread.

A brief question and then mention of a few things guys have said that resonated with me:

Jack, in your post #2 you mentioned:
Indeed. I moved to L.A. from San Antonio, TX where the venerable Bjorn's Audio Video is located. The store offered everything from more affordable items all the way up through very high end systems. Here in L.A., the middle disappears: you have a lot of very juiced in people who patronize custom installation boutiques like Christopher Hansen . . . and then there's Good Guys for basically everyone else.

TimGRA, did you end up buying the Sherwood Newcastle pre/pro you were so eagerly awaiting?

My idea has been to mate my M-85 with an ATI-3505 (250x5) for a 7.1 system with a powered Velodyne sub and much larger floor-standing Polks than I have now all around. Making a decision about a competitive, (upgradable?), flexible pre/pro has been something of a stumbling block in creating the system on paper though. Lexicon's kinda pricey IMO.

I'm also quite taken by the way the Denon 5800 offers a solution to the ITU versus THX surround spec issue. I'm very interested in direct radiators for surround music and bi/dipoles for film sound. I like how Denon's top of the line receivers provide for either at the switch of one setting.

-p

 

[Alan Wise]

Hello,
I've been following this thread trying to make a decision on going with seperates or not.
I am most interested in the AVR used as a pre-amp and then adding an amplifier to it.
My initial Idea was to go with either the B&K Ref.50/Ref.200.7, or the NAD T163/T973 combination. But after talking with tech support at both companies, niether includes the new Dolby Prologic IIx.
What I am now wavering with is buying either the new Denon 3805, or the Yamaha 2400 and picking up the B&K Ref200.7, or the NAD T973 amps (or others such as the Outlaw 770).
These two AVR's have Dolby Prologic IIx, and their version of automatic room calibration (Yamaha YPAO, Denon has one now also).
My question is: Are the processing capabilities of either of these receivers on par with that of the B&K, or the NAD?

Thanks, Al. Wise

 

[BrianAe]

One thing I find interesting is that everybody who is into HT says to go with seperates but in the world of high end 2 channel systems, integrated amps are very popular.

 

[CurtisSC]

Very true, but the internal electronics associated with a stereo integrated amp is far less than that of a AV receiver. With less internal "parts" it is far easier to get better sound. Pulling the amp section out of the AV receiver in theory is suppose to clean up the sound.

I have been using a HK 525 now for about a year, about 5-6 months ago I purchased an used ATI 1505 5x150wpc amp to use with it. It made a nice difference in the low end...more authority and definition. Using the 525 as a pre/pro was great....a lot of nice features that would cost me a lot of money if I went with a pre/pro.

Now, I just ordered the new Sherwood/Newcastle P-965 pre/pro. Great features for the money. I am hoping to be plesantly surprised in the sound quality area when it replaces the HK...but I am not expecting it.

 

[Paul.S]

Curtis:

Where'd you get the used ATI? Audiogon?

-p

 

[CurtisSC]

Paul,

Yup...Audiogon...and the guy was local too! Great deal at $700 and no shipping!

Very happy with it...but like with other things audio, I always wonder what somethingelse might be like in my setup. It is such a terrible disorder.

For amps...I am a big fan of Audiogon.

 

[TimGRA]

Paul S.

After much debate and research I ended up with the new Rotel 1068. I know everybody says it, but now I know it to be true. IMO there is no A/V receiver out there that can do what a pre-pro and amp can do. In my home the difference was well worth the investment.

What made the discission so difficult was "Sherwood Jeff." He is an absolute gentleman and I was again blown away by his professionalism. I really wanted to hear a New Castle piece and was offered, but it was not something I could do locally. After hearing the Rotel I just didn't feel like I could do any better for the price range I was in. Sorry Jeff. Man I feel like I cheated on you or something! HA!

OK here goes........once you go separates you'll never go back.

tim