Another Power Cord Subject?? (1 Viewer)

[Saurav]

Mark beat me to it.

 

[Mark Austin]

I just finished installing an FIM 880 outlet. The results forthcoming. So far, very nice.

 

[Mark Austin]

Saurav,

I think your post is actually much better than the one I referenced.

 

[Brian OK]

Saurav,

Very well stated......... your equipment (amp, CDP, DVD, DAC, etc...) really only knows the initial source connection. 2,000 miles of line, transformers, and then Romex.... it has no clue. Gear knows what to do with a clean signal though. Yes? IMO, a quality line conditioner, or a balanced power unit, or a PS unit, really can turn the tables when used with a quality power cord. The above combo, with a dedicated circuit ? ... now you are hearing/seeing improvements......

Our gear is truly sourced, and behaves accordingly, by the first 4-6' of a power cord. Theory ? Fact? Even believable? That is the never ending debate.

It is not for everybody to go this route, but for not large cash, one should at least try a dedicated circuit, or a decent line conditioner. Power cords ? Hell, for $125, used, you are not out a large sum to venture the diffenences.

My thoughts are that the actual wall plugs and IEC connection , play more into improvements on a PC than the wire itself. Combine a great design with top notch connectors, and the differences are there.

As in subjects like this, IMO, and YMMV.

BOK

 

[Tom Brennan]

I can't help but think that if power cords, patchcords and speaker wires made such a difference how come this wasn't known when the tremendous resources of Western Electric, RCA and MGM were working on sound reproduction in the 1920s and 30s? What did boutique audiophile manufacturers learn in their garages that Wente, Thuras and Fletcher didn't know at Bell Labs, Harry Olson didn't know at RCA and Hilliard and Lansing didn't know at MGM and Altec-Lansing? Don't you think they would have taken note if something so simple, so basic, made a difference? These guys invented, developed and used FAR better audio gear than most audiophiles use today but made no note of wiring save it be competant to pass the current or signal needed unaltered.

And these guys paid attention to detail, look at the quality of construction of Western Electric and RCA amplifiers, microphones and loudspeakers. Like you don't think these guys would have used shielded wire where they knew it was needed? Cmon, get real.

I think this whole wire thing is a racket and you guys buying into it are suckers and rubes.

 

[Mark Austin]

Tom,

I think that is a very simplistic view overall. I think that this thread has pointed out that maybe we were asking the wrong questions as to why, all along. Thinking, and ideas evolve. I mean following your logic, why the heck didn't Henry Ford make a 2002 Mustang Cobra R as we know it today in 1930? Or for that matter why does Polk keep comong out with newer(improved) models?

I think this whole wire thing is a racket and you guys buying into it are suckers and rubes.

I'd be very curious as to why you think that? I mean that statement is pretty easy to make, but what do you have to back that up with?

 

[DanielSmi]

Brian i wa about to ask that question what improvement would I get with an Audiophile wall outlet? PS Audio make one for $50. Is it any better than any "hospital grade" outlet you could prolly buy at Home Depot for much much less. Does anyone have any suggestions on power cords or AC outlets that'll actually make a difference?

Daniel Smith

 

[Mark Austin]

DanielSmi,
I just installed a FIM outlet for $45, that is a nice step up from the commercial grade outlet I had in before.
www.gcaudio.com has them.

 

[Mark Austin]

The thing is, is that in almost every minor city in the US one can, at no cost to themselves, audition an aftermarket power cord free of charge, in their own home if they are only willing to take the time.

 

[Brian OK]

Daniel,

No need to search out an "audiophile outlet" per say to get a good connection for your gear.

Mark has gone with the FIM (a very good outlet, by all accounts). That is for sure, as it is well touted across many forums.

I personally use two Pass&Seymour 5262A's. All brass construction (no steel, which is, as they say, "undesirable") and find them to be VERY , VERY tight fitting with the AC plug I use. The run of the mill household AC outlets are often the low end .99 Home Depot garden variety. And they are , most likely, what your gear is mated to right now.

I stay with the P&S becauseI like the fit, and the sound. Perhaps I will get a cryo/silver plate version down the road, but for now I like the brass outlet/all copper power cords combo I am running now.

Pass&Seymour 5262A is an INDUSTRIAL/HEAVY USE grade outlet. You can source brass/industrial grade outlets from an electrical supply house (dont waste your time trying to find one at HD, or Lowes.. etc) in your area, I'm sure.

I recommend dropping in to your local electrical/ wholesaler (trying not to appear totally clueless ;^) and asking for a Hubbell, Leviton,or Pass&Seymour, or Welbourne, or whatever..... just ask him for a commercial/industrial grade outlet for "heavy-use". Ask for ALL BRASS, NO STEEL, NO NICKEL PLATE . Very important, nothing but brass !!!! Not even the reinforced back plate of nickel or steel (the Pass&Seymour 5242). And just shoot the shit with him..... there ya go.

Do not mention "audio" at all... or you will be ignored and made shame of... just kidding ....(kinda)

Might cost you 7-8 bucks ea.. If you buy at least three you might make a better impression at the counter. As Bob Crump says, wear your AC/DC T-shirt for a better price, and smile.

Oh, as far as differences, I have no idea for you as it is a very system dependent tweak. Other than that very nice Pioneer integrated amp you own, and the Velo sub, I don't know your gear, your room, or anything related to your system setup. If you can clean the signal to the Pioneer, then you are on the path, for sure.

BOK

 

[Saurav]

Tom,

I think this whole wire thing is a racket and you guys buying into it are suckers and rubes.

Painting with a slightly broad brush here, aren't we? Just because some of us like to discuss the theory, doesn't mean we've spent more than $100 on all of our system cabling.
Now that I'm done with the royal third-person plural thing... apart from interconnects, the other cabling in a modern audio system is handling something different from what it handled 50-70 years ago. It's one thing to have an amp that draws 10W from the wall and puts out 5W into speaker cables feeding very sensitive speakers, versus some amps today that can draw up to 6000W from the wall and feed 500W into the speaker cable feeding your typical power-hog 'audiophile' speaker. The voltage and current levels in the speaker cable are several orders of magnitude higher, so the situation isn't exactly the same.
Also, an amp using a tube rectifier doesn't feed switching noise into the power transformer. How many amps from the 1920s had solid state rectifier diodes?
And while we're on the subject of cost, since you mentioned "boutique audiophile manufacturers" - I have nothing to say about how much some cables cost. Personally, I think the profit margin on some (not all) of them is ridiculous, and I wouldn't spend my money on them. I would spend my money for better engineered cables though, mostly by buying raw supplies and building them myself. I understand the math behind needing low capacitance interconnects with a passive linestage, so I'll pay what to me is a reasonable amount of money to own low capacitance interconnects. That does not mean I'll buy interconnects that cost as much as my linestage.

 

[mike_decock]

What other $200 upgrade would you recommend for a $4200 49tx? And who is to say how small the difference is?

Room treatments and CDs or LPs have already been mentioned. Personally, I would but the $200 into my audiophile piggy bank towards a bigger purchase.

I have never heard the difference between power cables and I have never heard of anyone identifying power cables in a blind test.

Is it possible that there are significant differences? Sure, why not? I've been wrong before and I'd be happy to change my mind if I hear it for myself or if a well-controlled experiment demonstrates it.

-Mike...

 

[Tom Brennan]

Mark---I've taken part in DBTs where speaker wire couldn't be told apart and I've seen powercords swapped-out with no change in sound, no change in sound except to those who wanted to believe there was.

As for Ford and Polk, are you sure those Polk models are really improved? Loudspeaker technology is a mature one with little improvement since the 1930s in the best speakers though I will admit that small, cheap speakers have gotten much better. For instance the much lauded new Vifa tweeter in the new Polks is a simple copy of a 1950s JBL ring-radiator but sans the expensive parts like the huge magnet, ribbon voice-coil, tight gap and machined phasing plug.

Mark, I've been around this hobby for over 30 years and I've seen so much BS come and go I've become quite a skeptic. So many things have been claimed to improve the sound over the years yet I hear 1950s era electronics and speakers that sound better than most "good" stuff made today. Or at least it sounds better to my taste.

 

[Mark Austin]

Mark, I've been around this hobby for over 30 years and I've seen so much BS come and go I've become quite a skeptic. So many things have been claimed to improve the sound over the years yet I hear 1950s era electronics and speakers that sound better than most "good" stuff made today. Or at least it sounds better to my taste.

While I appreciate and respect your proclaimed longevity in the audio world, it doesn't really mean too much, no offense. The fact that you have been following ot for so long does not in and of itself carry some significant weight. I appreciate your comments, but they are no more significant than anyone elses. The fact that you can't distinguish the difference between the last 15 years in speaker improvements, speaks volumes.

 

[Mark Austin]

Mark, I've been around this hobby for over 30 years and I've seen so much BS come and go I've become quite a skeptic. So many things have been claimed to improve the sound over the years yet I hear 1950s era electronics and speakers that sound better than most "good" stuff made today. Or at least it sounds better to my taste.

I think your last statement tells the whole story. "...to my taste." It's all to our own individual taste. Take B&W, who had some great sounding speakers 20 yeas ago. Anyone who has listened to their products can definitely discern improvements over the years. Heck, 30 years ago the Bose 901 was considered by many to be the pinnacle of audio reproduction. Today that design, and sound is laughed at, and rightfully so. McIntosh, who was the pinnacle for the longest time has made very significant improvements on their legendary designs. I can hear signifiact improvements in the pre-amps from just three years ago. The list goes on and on.

 

[mike_decock]

I'm sure you have. But, that doesn't really mean a whole lot. Even if we knew the speaker cables and power cords used. The test itself is being used out of context, so I have no doubt of your claimed results.

Not to be rude, but your claims to hear astonishing differences in power cords is equally meaningless, especially since your listening tests are not being done in a controlled fashion.

Tom didn't even mention the context of the test so I don't know how you can immediately claim that it's being used out of context.

I must see one of these "Are power cords bunk?" or "Are speaker cables bunk?" discussions fire up weekly. It's kind of funny that the ones who swear by them generally haven't participated in any blind tests, and those who have participated generally feel that they are bunk.

Personally, my criteria for cables is that they make a good connection and that they are well constructed. I swap out Kimber, Audioquest, Monster, Cobalt and generic cables with reckless abandon (yes, I used to be a believer but after some honest, critical listening and comparing I couldn't determine a lick of difference).

Still, I'm willing to give it the benefit of possibility. Maybe in certain situations with certain equipment a difference can be distinguished. However, I have had enough personal experience and anecdotal evidence of people who have done extensive controlled tests that I find it highly unlikely.


-Mike...

 

[Tom Brennan]

Mark---I said that bad speakers have gotten better didn't I? Today's mediocre speakers, Paradigms, ProAcs or B&Ws say, sound much better than the mediocre speakers of 40 years ago, ARs or KLHs say. But good speakers have improved very little. Yes, a modern Scandanavian dome tweeter is an improvement over a 1950s Jensen paper cone tweeter but neither is in the same class as a 1957 Altec-Lansing or JBL compression driver, neither sounds as good as a 1957 Quad electrostat either. I must take it that your listening has been confined to mediocre speakers and that's why you believe things are improving overall, they're not.
We often swap out speaker wires, patchcords and even power cords at our horn club meetings; suffice to say that those who think it makes a difference hear one and others don't. But swapping amps, horn flares, drivers and crossover points almost always has a change in sound that everyone agrees is happening. At one meeting a fella brought some patchcords that cost over $1000, he heard big improvements and the reat of us were scratching our heads. And some young guys in their 20s, music lovers but not audiophiles and with no preconceptions, flat-out told the guy he was nuts.
Now I certainly believe that speaker wires or patchcords are capable of effecting the sound, it would be simple enough to design such devices to be incompetant and color the sound and that's what I think some wiremakers are doing. They are selling equalizers in the guise of wire, equalizers being considered outre in the audiophile world. But guys like EQ even though it isn't "cool" to do so, incompetant wires that color the sound fill the bill.
And so far nobody has touched my question that if wires were such a big deal how come The Giants who invented High-Fidelity back in the 1930s weren't aware of such a simple thing. Could it be they were searching for fidelity and not coloration? Or maybe they were serious scientists and engineers and knew such things didn't matter unless one was seeking coloration? Find out the things that guys like Wente, Thuras, Fletcher, Olson, Hilliard and Lansing invented and developed; then ask yourself if it's really likely that today's boutique wiremakers are sharper guys than they were.
www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org

 

[Mark Austin]

So, the way I see it you get all these meaningless debates because of one side, usually those who don't think cables make a difference jumping in and offering their opinion where their opinion wasn't asked for, just as in this thread.

 

[Mark Austin]

Tom,

And so far nobody has touched my question that if wires were such a big deal how come The Giants who invented High-Fidelity back in the 1930s weren't aware of such a simple thing. Could it be they were searching for fidelity and not coloration? Or maybe they were serious scientists and engineers and knew such things didn't matter unless one was seeking coloration? Find out the things that guys like Wente, Thuras, Fletcher, Olson, Hilliard and Lansing invented and developed; then ask yourself if it's really likely that today's boutique wiremakers are sharper guys than they were.

That question is impossible to answer. Anything offered would be pure specualtion, so what's the point? The way you phrase that last part you put it forth that today's wiremakers would have to be smarter, if they are onto something. It doesn't have to be an either or proposition. Maybe the guys from yesteryear weren't looking at this area. It doesn't mean one side is sharper than the other.

 

[Tom Brennan]

Mark---Your arguement that perhaps the Old-Timers weren't looking for wire effects is a good one though I suspect they would certainly have stumbled upon this if wires were as easily audible as some claim. But on the other hand some claim differences in wire exist but are subtle, a not unreasonable view.
As you have no doubt surmised I'm an audio reactionary (though a political Left-Winger) and I think that the main improvements in Audio since, oh, 1945, have been in the recording and playback processes; yes magnetic recording is better than optical as I was instantly aware when I heard the opening blasts of the overture music to Ben-Hur in 1959.
As you say this whole hobby is about opinion and taste anyway.
www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org