And the under-achieving center channel of the year award goes to........... (1 Viewer)

[Tim O...]

First, let me put out my bias: I own F1s, B2s, B1s, and a C1. I think this line is amazing for the money and I'm very happy with mine. I have to say that everything I've read about the AS-C1 up until now has been positive, so it was a shock to see it being called "the underachieving centre channel of the year."

Now, to Kevin's "problem": I find it hard to understand how you can criticize a company and its product when you haven't even followed the simple (1 page) instructions for setting it up. They clearly state that you need to break the speaker in for 100 hours. Even if you don't believe speakers need this (and I do--they are, as someone said, electro-mechanical parts whose size, shape, elasticity, etc., will change over time; for example, the rubber surrounds will get slightly softer and more pliable over time--mine seem to have, and their sound has improved). To break them in properly all you need to do is put a CD on repeat mode and go to work for a few days, again as the instructions advised you. I found it hard to take your hyperbolic criticism of the AS-C1 seriously when you just tried the speaker for a couple of days and dismissed it offhand. It's also strange that you described its sound as pleasingly detailed, but then so vehemently criticized it overall.

It's your money and your HT, but if I were you I would have given it a bit more time. It's not enough to just *assume* that a speaker is going to sound a certain way after 100 hours of break-in; you have to actually break it in and hear it. I also don't think it fair to be so negative about something when you didn't properly set it up nor demo it. For my part, I find the front soundstage very well integrated in my system, especially considering what I paid for it. You have to remember too that the F2's are considerably more sensitive, and therefore you need to calibrate all your channels accurately, especially between the fronts and centre. My fronts are set 3-4 dbs lower than my centre, and I only have F1s. I would imagine your F2s, properly calibrated, would be even lower. I don't recall you stating that you'd done that in your posts.

The Audition line, and the C1, are certainly not the best you can buy. But as so many reviewers and owners have stated, they're almost certainly the best you can buy at that price. Perhaps you're also looking for too much from a centre channel?

One other thing I wanted to comment on: I find it hard to see how the AS-C1 can be called a small centre channel, compared to some of the other pint-sized centre channels out there, again something on which numerous reviewers have commented.

 

[Tim O...]

One other thing Kevin: I don't recall seeing any mention of what sub you run, or how it's set up, other than I think you said that you've got the C1 crossed over at 60. In my opinion 60 is too low, even though the C1 is rated to there. You didn't say how your mains were configured with your sub, but even if you are crossing them over at 60 also (and if you're not, that could be your problem), your mains are much more bass capable, and so: a) the bass from the mains could be overshadowing the low end of the C1; or b) if you have an underperforming/incorrectly set up sub, it could be exposing the centre's weaker low end. If you've got your sub properly integrated with your system, "pleasingly detailed" speakers should have no problem "keeping up" (not sure what that means anyway) with your mains, as the sub will be handling all of the bass and mid-bass, the (very similar) woofers the midrange, and the (identical) tweeters the treble.

On another note, it's frankly almost useless demoing speakers in a BB "listening room," other than to get a general sense of their tonal quality; even if the staff has them set up properly (and most don't), each speaker would have to be calibrated separately in the room, with the same receiver/amp, to fairly assess them. Do you actually think that happens?

 

[Tim O...]

One other thing Kevin: I don't recall seeing any mention of what sub you run, or how it's set up, other than I think you said that you've got the C1 crossed over at 60. In my opinion 60 is too low, even though the C1 is rated to there. You didn't say how your mains were configured with your sub, but even if you are crossing them over at 60 also (and if you're not, that could be your problem), your mains are much more bass capable, and so: a) the bass from the mains could be overshadowing the low end of the C1; or b) if you have an underperforming/incorrectly set up sub, it could be exposing the centre's weaker low end. If you've got your sub properly integrated with your system, "pleasingly detailed" speakers should have no problem "keeping up" (not sure what that means anyway) with your mains, as the sub will be handling all of the bass and mid-bass, the (very similar) woofers the midrange, and the (identical) tweeters the treble.

On another note, it's frankly almost useless demoing speakers in a BB "listening room," other than to get a general sense of their tonal quality; even if the staff has them set up properly (and most don't), each speaker would have to be calibrated separately in the room, with the same receiver/amp, to fairly assess them. Do you actually think that happens?

 

[Chuck_W]

As Kevin quoted above, when another customer on the Athena website asked when Athena would create a center that could "keep up" with the AS-F2's, Athena support responded that setting the AS-C1 to small would result in "removing the bass and dynamics from the center channel's tone".

I agree Tim that integrating this speaker with a proper sub crossover sounds appropriate...but from Athena's reply it appears they recommend setting it to "large" (?).

 

[Chuck_W]

As Kevin quoted above, when another customer on the Athena website asked when Athena would create a center that could "keep up" with the AS-F2's, Athena support responded that setting the AS-C1 to small would result in "removing the bass and dynamics from the center channel's tone".

I agree Tim that integrating this speaker with a proper sub crossover sounds appropriate...but from Athena's reply it appears they recommend setting it to "large" (?).

 

[Tim O...]

I think they do that because the typical buyer for these speakers is in the budget home theatre category, and therefore: a) has a receiver with limited bass management features, and/or b) has a budget sub (which in actuality is really a bass module) that cannot really handle redirected bass information from all channels. Therefore, the user is better off letting the centre channel receive and reproduce a full range signal. Also, they may do this because there typically is not much bass information below 50-60 Hz in the center channel during movie playback, although it certainly will exist in 5.1, SACD, and DVD-A music playback.

However, I think few would argue that for both movie and music playback, the optimum configuration, if you have a real subwoofer (flat response and reference level extension to 20 Hz), is all speakers set to small and crossed over and calibrated properly.

 

[Tim O...]

I think they do that because the typical buyer for these speakers is in the budget home theatre category, and therefore: a) has a receiver with limited bass management features, and/or b) has a budget sub (which in actuality is really a bass module) that cannot really handle redirected bass information from all channels. Therefore, the user is better off letting the centre channel receive and reproduce a full range signal. Also, they may do this because there typically is not much bass information below 50-60 Hz in the center channel during movie playback, although it certainly will exist in 5.1, SACD, and DVD-A music playback.

However, I think few would argue that for both movie and music playback, the optimum configuration, if you have a real subwoofer (flat response and reference level extension to 20 Hz), is all speakers set to small and crossed over and calibrated properly.

 

[brentl]

Remember that ideally all three front speakers would match. The C1 is way under the F2 in terms of dynamics and doesn't quite match the F2s

Not that the C1 is bad, I would have liked them to put out a center with dual 8" drivers just in a smaller cabinet.

Give us the choice of a C1 for $250 or a C2 for $350 I'd take the C2.

Brent

 

[brentl]

Remember that ideally all three front speakers would match. The C1 is way under the F2 in terms of dynamics and doesn't quite match the F2s

Not that the C1 is bad, I would have liked them to put out a center with dual 8" drivers just in a smaller cabinet.

Give us the choice of a C1 for $250 or a C2 for $350 I'd take the C2.

Brent

 

[Tim O...]

I understand what you mean Brent, although I'm not sure I agree with the statement "The C1 is way under the F2 in terms of dynamics and doesn't quite match the F2s." Both are rated to 20 kHz, +/- 3 dB; the F2 is rated to 37 Hz, and the C1 to 60 Hz on the bottom end. The only gap is therefore on the bottom end, and is less than one octave. I don't know of too many full range centre channels, let alone centres that perform *well* to 60 Hz, let alone perform well to 60 Hz and COST LESS THAN $200 USD. Of course it would be nice to have a full range centre channel, even if it means that you have to lie a 3.5 foot speaker across the floor or on top of your TV. But then... you've got a 3.5 foot speaker lying across the floor or on your TV. That's why most centres are not 3.5 feet long, with 8" drivers in them. That's why, instead, good receivers/processors and good subs take over for the centre below its bottom-end capabilities.

I'm not trying to turn this into an apology (in the classical sense of the term) for Athena. However, I do find it somewhat offensive when someone posts such exaggeration, right in the title of the thread no less, about what is in actuality a quality *budget* speaker, and definitely not "the underachieving centre channel of the year." As I said above, no, it's not the best you can buy, but even Kevin himself liked a few things about it a lot, and then for some inexplicable reason slammed it unequivocally. What's worse, he provided virtually no information whatsoever on his setup, he admitted that he simply hooked up the centre channel, didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions, and just listened to it a few times before completely trashing it on a public forum. In fact he still hasn't answered mine and others' questions about his setup. What irks me about this thread and its initial post is that I've been spending a lot of time in SVS and other sub forums, in which all products spoken about and reviewed are most always done in a neutral, balanced way, backed up by typically rigorous testing and analysis. This type of non-credible, apparently unfounded hyperbole is not fair to manufacturers and the rest of us looking for good advice and feedback, and is simply not tolerated by members on those forums. Maybe I've come to expect too much.

 

[Tim O...]

I understand what you mean Brent, although I'm not sure I agree with the statement "The C1 is way under the F2 in terms of dynamics and doesn't quite match the F2s." Both are rated to 20 kHz, +/- 3 dB; the F2 is rated to 37 Hz, and the C1 to 60 Hz on the bottom end. The only gap is therefore on the bottom end, and is less than one octave. I don't know of too many full range centre channels, let alone centres that perform *well* to 60 Hz, let alone perform well to 60 Hz and COST LESS THAN $200 USD. Of course it would be nice to have a full range centre channel, even if it means that you have to lie a 3.5 foot speaker across the floor or on top of your TV. But then... you've got a 3.5 foot speaker lying across the floor or on your TV. That's why most centres are not 3.5 feet long, with 8" drivers in them. That's why, instead, good receivers/processors and good subs take over for the centre below its bottom-end capabilities.

I'm not trying to turn this into an apology (in the classical sense of the term) for Athena. However, I do find it somewhat offensive when someone posts such exaggeration, right in the title of the thread no less, about what is in actuality a quality *budget* speaker, and definitely not "the underachieving centre channel of the year." As I said above, no, it's not the best you can buy, but even Kevin himself liked a few things about it a lot, and then for some inexplicable reason slammed it unequivocally. What's worse, he provided virtually no information whatsoever on his setup, he admitted that he simply hooked up the centre channel, didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions, and just listened to it a few times before completely trashing it on a public forum. In fact he still hasn't answered mine and others' questions about his setup. What irks me about this thread and its initial post is that I've been spending a lot of time in SVS and other sub forums, in which all products spoken about and reviewed are most always done in a neutral, balanced way, backed up by typically rigorous testing and analysis. This type of non-credible, apparently unfounded hyperbole is not fair to manufacturers and the rest of us looking for good advice and feedback, and is simply not tolerated by members on those forums. Maybe I've come to expect too much.

 

[Charles Gurganus]

Kevin, you can get NHT superones and superzeros for cheap at onecall. These could be a decent match and they are great speakers. Now for a brand at BB, did you try any of the Infinity centers?

I would also agree that crossing the center over at 60hz is too low for most centers. Also, check to make sure you haven't somehow wired the center out of phase with the mains.

 

[Charles Gurganus]

Kevin, you can get NHT superones and superzeros for cheap at onecall. These could be a decent match and they are great speakers. Now for a brand at BB, did you try any of the Infinity centers?

I would also agree that crossing the center over at 60hz is too low for most centers. Also, check to make sure you haven't somehow wired the center out of phase with the mains.

 

[Kevin Alexander]

Shame on you Tim O... for talking about me behind my back. As far as this whole speaker break in thing goes - I just don't buy it. This has never been a huge deal until Athena recommends it in their literature. I won't doubt that some changes in sound may occur, but you make it sound like I should wait for the AS-C1 to undergo some miraculous metamorphasis. If that's the case w/ every speaker, why even do a listen before you buy if the sound is going to radically change. Over the last 10 years, I have had brand new and fairly expensive Polks, Infinities, Paradigm, and now Athena - all of them, years later, had the exact same sound they did when I bought them new.

BTW, I forgot to post here that I indeed decided to stay w/ the Athena AS-C1 and have had it in my system now for slightly over a month. It, as well as the AS-F2's, are well broken in now. And guess what, Tim O, while I feel that I can live w/ the sound of it, I'm still somewhat underwhelmed w/ its overall presence and soundstage.

Now let's get to the fun part that we all came here for:

Man, you really need a girlfriend. And don't forget to sign your Athena payroll check on the back, otherwise, the bank teller won't cash it.

Finally, it's spelled CENTER, not CENTRE

 

[Kevin Alexander]

Shame on you Tim O... for talking about me behind my back. As far as this whole speaker break in thing goes - I just don't buy it. This has never been a huge deal until Athena recommends it in their literature. I won't doubt that some changes in sound may occur, but you make it sound like I should wait for the AS-C1 to undergo some miraculous metamorphasis. If that's the case w/ every speaker, why even do a listen before you buy if the sound is going to radically change. Over the last 10 years, I have had brand new and fairly expensive Polks, Infinities, Paradigm, and now Athena - all of them, years later, had the exact same sound they did when I bought them new.

BTW, I forgot to post here that I indeed decided to stay w/ the Athena AS-C1 and have had it in my system now for slightly over a month. It, as well as the AS-F2's, are well broken in now. And guess what, Tim O, while I feel that I can live w/ the sound of it, I'm still somewhat underwhelmed w/ its overall presence and soundstage.

Now let's get to the fun part that we all came here for:

Man, you really need a girlfriend. And don't forget to sign your Athena payroll check on the back, otherwise, the bank teller won't cash it.

Finally, it's spelled CENTER, not CENTRE

 

[PaulDA]

Whilst I agree with your point by point defence of yourself, I must draw the line here. On our side of the border, not to mention the land where the language originates, it is CENTRE not CENTER. Let us ENDEAVOUR to have some HUMOUR about all things related to home THEATRE.

BTW, I grew up on your side of the border, but saw the error of my spelling ways and have embraced the Queen's English, as it was meant to be.

 

[PaulDA]

Whilst I agree with your point by point defence of yourself, I must draw the line here. On our side of the border, not to mention the land where the language originates, it is CENTRE not CENTER. Let us ENDEAVOUR to have some HUMOUR about all things related to home THEATRE.

BTW, I grew up on your side of the border, but saw the error of my spelling ways and have embraced the Queen's English, as it was meant to be.

 

[Dwayne-S]

I would venture to say you would not be able to hear the gradual changes as your speakers settle into the mellow groove of conditioning. Only if you bought two pairs of speakers and "broke" one pair in while letting the other sit idle, would you be able to evaluate the difference the "break in" process lends.

 

[Dwayne-S]

I would venture to say you would not be able to hear the gradual changes as your speakers settle into the mellow groove of conditioning. Only if you bought two pairs of speakers and "broke" one pair in while letting the other sit idle, would you be able to evaluate the difference the "break in" process lends.

 

[Kevin Alexander]

You are right Dwayne. I don't doubt that some changes might occur, but I don't think it's as readily and easily perceivable as some manufacturers would have us believe.