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Amp for Sub project (1 Viewer)

ccdoggy

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Steve
So I am gradually getting the parts for a Theater sub setup.

I am planning on at least 1,000 Watts for the amp. I want to have that much just in case i ever want to change anything ill definetly have enough power to do it. I just cannot get a definitive choice in my mind as i dont think i have seen all the choices yet.

So amp wise i am really looking at the Dayton HPSA 1000 Watt plate or rack amp (good?). However somewhere i saw a suggestion for a Behringer EP-1500 a pro amp but it has a filter for below 30-40hz.

With this setup i wanna get low and powerfull. Planning on 2 subs in seperate enclosures one in either corner of the wall that the projector screen is on.

The Dayton is the only one i could find off hand that hs just about everything i want in an amp. However is there other options? maybe for less $? I am not lookin for cheap, i just want resonable. I know there are many brands out there that i have never heard of and thus why i ask all the professionals here.

Thanks allot and I hope everyone has an awesome evening!
 

Arthur S

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Hi Steve

You will get better results posting this question in the DIY Advanced Projects section of the HTF Forum

Happy New YEar
 

Ryan Schnacke

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First, I would generally consider the Buttkicker amplifier to be a better deal than the PE 1000 watt sub plate/rack amps. It generally sells for a good bit less and it claims to be stable outputting 2100 ohms into 2 shakers wired in parallel for a ~2ohm load. I don't know if the impedance curve for a shaker is anything like that for a woofer. So it might not be ideal at 2 ohms to a woofer. But then again it might be okay. The PE amps would definitely not be happy with a 2 ohm load.

If you're running 2 subs you should definitely think about what impedance you're going to end up with at the amp. If you go with a pair of 4 ohm woofers and a mono amp, then you can wire for 2 ohms or 8 ohms. The PE amp is definitely a bad choice here since it won't like the 2 ohm load and it'll only make 500 watts with an 8 ohm load. A stereo amp like the Behringer will generally give you more wiring options. And for only $50 more you can get the EP2500 instead of the EP1500. And its still cheaper than the PE 1000 watt sub amps. So its certainly a better bargain.

The pro amps like the Behringers will have (noisy) fans. If you keep them in a closet or another room then this won't be a problem. Or you can replace the fans with quieter fans. The PE and Buttkicker have no fans - silent operation.

The pro amps don't have triggers. You could put it on a triggered powerstrip. I think the PE and Buttkicker have automatic triggers.
 

ccdoggy

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Steve
Questions regarding the Behringer amp:
1. How well would it drive a sub?
2. I want the lows of the lows including the infrasonic down to about 17Hz would be perfect, then again not totally necessary. when they say "Selectable low-frequency filters (30 Hz or 50 Hz) remove distracting infra-sound frequencies" can i turn it off so it dosent cut anything out? If i could do that i would be way more convinced about it.
3. It has a balanced XLR and a 1/4" inputs. I only output in RCA, could i take an rca cable and some how mod it to a XLR or 1/4" or do i need some sort of converter for it because of different voltages or signals or something?

Impediance wise i figure i would tackle that one once i got the amp, the Behringer seems to have more then enough power to drive just about anything at just about any impediance. I was thinking of starting with a 4 ohm sub and then adding another eventually thus 2 ohms.

I just dont like the thought of a buttkicker driving speakers, it almos tseems like those would be less quality and worse sound then something that was designed for speakers.

Thanks i really do appreciate the help.
 

Arthur S

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Hi Steve

From the image of the back of the Behringer it seems that you can turn off the low cut filter entirely...is there any reason why you can't consider a regular HT subwoofer...there are some good values without taking chances with matching drivers, cabinets, amps, crossovers, etc...almost everyone on this particular section of the forum is into powered boxes or powered cylinders...I have a $550 SVS 20-39PCi that is good to below 20Hz at considerable volume...there are many reasonably priced subs that will almost certainly meet your needs...

Happy New Year
 

Robert_J

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1. My EP-2500 does an excellent job driving subs.
2. Like Arthur stated, the high pass filter can be bypassed by changing a DIP switch. Takes less than 10 seconds to make the change.
3. I use an RCA to 1/4" cable from Radio Shack. I think it cost $6. As for voltage matching, I'm using a Pioneer VSX-1014 and the voltage matches fine. If you need a boost, then the Art Clean Box ($40) is recommended.

It's just a mono amp designed to drive a 4 or 2 ohm load. There are many successful sub projects using the BK amp. Here are two examples that both also use the TC Sounds TC-2000 15" sub.
Link 1
Link 2

-Robert
 

ccdoggy

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Thanks allot for the help. I think i have decided on a EP-2500 and 2 TC-2000 subs.

I just have a final question, Where would i get an EQ for the sub to boost it low into the 20hz region? i did a quick search and dident come up with much but car sub EQs.

Thanks again for the help i do appreciate it.
 

Robert_J

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You may not need an EQ depending on your design. The large, low tuned (LLT) subs I linked don't need any boost at all. They may need an EQ to tame the room response but boost is not needed.

The dual 4 ohm TC-2000's (at least the 15" models) need a larger enclosure than the single voice coil models. If you are wanting to go sealed, then I recommend the TC-3000 models. The extra motor power allows them to work very well in "small" sealed enclosures.

-Robert
 

ccdoggy

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after lookin at wiring options it seems as though i do want to go with the TC-3000 mainly because of the more wiring options and i think you are right on the enclosure and power needed.

That Behringer Feedback Destroyer does look extremly interesting, however i guess i just dont have the budget for it right now, yeah i know its not much but im currently a poor college student and every little bit i can put of is better for down the road.

Quick short question, for a box i was contemplating doing a low tuned ported box with a 1" thich plexiglass window just to show it off a bit. Do you think the Plexi will effect it at all as long as it is screwed in good and sealed with some goop?

Thanks a ton for the help. I am sure i will eventually be back with pics of the install.
 

Robert_J

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The TC-3000 is works best in a sealed enclosure but the response in a ported one is not bad. Wire it up as 1.4 ohm and the natural impedance rise will keep you above 2 ohms throughout the frequency range.

I modeled it in a 300L, 14hz tune system. Each channel of the Behringer should be capable of pushing the max power. I don't recommend running your system at full power unless you have a dedicated 20amp circuit for the sub.

The only drawback of Behringer amps are their loud fans. They can be replaced with one from Panaflo (FBA08A24L1A, 24V, 80x25.5, 21dB
Digikey P/N P9739-ND, $8.25).

The plexiglass should work fine as long as it is sealed. Again, this adds more work for you since you will have to finish the interior of the enclosure as well as the exterior. If you want to show off the driver, why don't you invert one of them?

Finally, the BFD is one of the best additions to a subwoofer. You are building world class bass. Don't cut corners. I was a poor college student once. I could have easily afforded a BFD (and probably a car) if I had cut back on the drinking.

-Robert
 

ccdoggy

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That is exaclty what i am planning on doing size wise and tuning wise and wiring wise.

I build computers and have access to many fans and what not so i will definetly be replacing the fan. However isent the fan a 24Volt fan? i can use resisters but would like a confirmation if you happen to know.

Personally i find that the inverted sub is just asking for someone to pull wires, poke at it or worse. I figure i take my time on the enclosure, grab some engineering friends of mine and have them help me with the project, it will turn out great. I am thinking of Piano black on the whole thing, maybe a few led lights in the box but only if i can do them nice and neat to show off a bit.

I am wondering if I could get some help doing some WinISD stuff. I am having a hell of a time entering the driver's paramaters and having it accept them, every time i put in what i know and what i am given it pops up with errors saying the numbers are conflicting. I have tried puting them in a different order, following the directions in the help but i cannot get it working. Here are the numbers needed, If there is any way to help me i would much appreciate it.

15" TC-3000 QVC
Qts0.308
Qes0.324
Qms6.10
Fs22hz
Res5.6Ω
Ls9.2 mH
Lp20.2mH
Rp27.66Ω
Dia325mm
Vas146l
mms373g
cms 140um/N
bl27.1T*m
Spl88.6dB


Yea, thats more or less my justification to not become a drinker/smoker. Save $ and get awesome sound stuff.

I think i will eventually get a BFD, but in a little bit once funds become a bit more abundant. I will get one but not at the same time as everything else.

-Steve-
 

Robert_J

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Piano black is one of the most difficult finishes to apply. Start with an MDF box and apply a few coats of Minwax Wood Hardener. Sand lightly between coats. Next comes a few coats of primer. Sand between each coat with progressively lighter sandpaper (200, 400, 800, etc.). Next are the laquer coats. Again, sand between coats (1000, 2000, plane paper). Then you use a polishing compound and buffer for the final shine. Make sure the area you work in is well ventilated and you have a respirator. The fumes are tough.

The resistor mod on the Behringer will work but it will immediately void your warranty. If you add your own plug (available on a PC power supply) to the new fan, it's a drop in replacement.

I haven't used WinISD in years. If you have Excel, then Unibox is the modeling software of choice for me and a lot of others.

-Robert
 

ccdoggy

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I got WinISD figured out.

The piano black would be sweet, but that does seem like allot of work... I guess ill just decide that later when i get the box closer to finished.

Thanks allot for you're help.
 

Robert_J

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Another option for gloss black would be a laminate from Formica or Wilsonart. Just glue it to the box with contact cement and trim the edges with a router. The drawback is with the seams at the edges. The thinest laminate will have the smallest seams. I've also seen people paint the seam the same color as the laminate. It's not cheap though. It will run you at least $50 and maybe more.

A nice looking alternative is hammered metal paint. It still reqires the Minwax prep and a coat or two of primer but not nearly as much sanding. Get the roll on version of the paint since it is much cheaper than spray. You could cover the whole box for under $20 and have a very nice looking sub.

Since you are leaning towards the TC-3000, have you seen kramskoi's post at the TC forum? The performance is great. That makes me want to get the six 15" top assemblies for my magnets.

-Robert
 

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