Amir's interesting take on Triple layer HD DVD (45GB)

Discussion in 'Playback Devices' started by Sean Bryan, Aug 2, 2006.

  1. Sean Bryan

    Sean Bryan Sean Bryan

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    I found this post by Amir to be interesting.

    My take had been that the door was basically closed on the possibility of TL45 HD DVD because it wasn't in the specs. But it seems that it is still a possibility if absolutely needed.

    from a thread at AVS forum:
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8125574


    I found that last paragraph (bold emphasis mine) to be quite an interesting statement.

    But it makes me wonder. Why not just do the work to get it definitely part of the format's specs and use that to try to woo current BD only studios like Disney back to HD DVD instead of waiting for Disney to ask them to do it in order for them to come over?

    That's like a hot girl hoping a guy will ask her out, but she waits for him to come to her. The guy never does because he thinks she is out of his league and not interested, so he just never asks. If the girl realized how dense guys can be and made it clear she was interested, then he would probably ask her out.

    If it is true that HD DVD45 can be added with relatively little effort, why not just do it instead of waiting for studios to ask them to. The studios may not know to ask if they don't know that it is a definite option if they want it.

    Does that make sense?

    Even if it if wouldn't be necessary all that often, why not just put in the effort to give the format that extra flexibility?

    HD DVD30 is used as the typical/standard for most stuff.
    HD DVD15 is used occasionally when there simply is no need to go dual layer.
    HD DVD45 is used occasionally when they really would benefit from a little extra space if the studio wants to load the disc up with a super amount of extra crap.

    I think the format can do just fine with 30, but why not give them the option of 45 if it really is possible and (reportedly) not too difficult to make happen?
     
  2. Pete T C

    Pete T C Second Unit

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    I think the answer is that HD45 really isn't necessary, and proving that HD30 is all thats really needed is a lot cheaper than making HD45 happen for all that are involved - plus then you will have consumers demanding HD45 discs from studios and Sony's argument that more space is needed being somewhat validated. Therefore you could have HD45 actually used against HD DVD by the same studios claiming that they are with Blu-Ray because they want the 50gb size. On top of that, if HD45 isn't ready to go immediately then HD45 will only extend the format war while people wait for HD45 vs. BD50.

    Of course, with the recent reviews indicating several HD15 releases having more features and better overall a/v quality than the same movie in BD25, I think HD DVD has done a great job of showing that HD45/BD50 is unnecessary when using VC-1.

    What Amir's comment does prove is that when a studio says they are siding with Blu-Ray because of the size, that is most likely a crock. More likely it is the stricter DRM of BD+.
     
  3. Sean Bryan

    Sean Bryan Sean Bryan

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    Yeah, that makes sense for the most part.

    I just keep going back to a long and interesting post Amir made about Disney. It detailed how Microsoft and Disney worked together to make iHD. Disney (and MS) tried very hard to get iHD to be accepted by the BDA, but the BDA ultimately went with BD java for what sounded like more political than technical reasons, and Disney wasn't thrilled about that.

    Then (I forgot the specifics on how it played out) Disney backed BD but didn't back HD DVD. I think they may have indicated that they liked the greater capacity because they wanted to do all that interactive "tea party junk". So Amir had said one of the main reasons (possibly THE main reason) they were pushing the TL45 option for HD DVD was to show Disney they could match (basically) BD's capacity. But even still, Disney didn't announce support for HD DVD as well, so then MS and Toshiba just let this option sit there and didn't push it further.

    My take is that if they thought this would be at all appealing to Disney, then why not just put it in? Even if Disney didn't seem to be swayed by it at that immediate time it may have played a factor months down the road (when other political/business factors maybe lead Disney to think about dual support). Then it would be an additional carrot.

    But yes, if they were convinced that it wasn't really a space issue but more of a copy protection or political issue, it is understandable for them to say "why bother".

    And yes, if it would involve a massive undertaking, then pursuing TL-45 would possibly send the wrong message that they think they don't have enough space. But if it really is not so much of a effort (like it is at least implied by Amir), then doing it can be a way of saying "look, we don't think you'll need this but it is there if you really want it. And since it wasn't such a big deal we also did it just to shut up the "other guys".

    I just think that as good as things have gone for HD DVD so far, and as shaky as things have gone for BD so far, HD DVD is still in a position where they need to be actively wooing the hold-out studios, not waiting for the studios to come to them.

    But yeah, if they truly feel that the extra space is not something the studios want that would change their minds, then I can understand not pushing it through right now.

    If the hold-out studios are doing so because they are convinced that PS3 is going to sweep BD to victory (and they really don't care about potential capacity of either format, etc...) then another 15GB for HD DVD isn't going to do anything to sway them right now.
     
  4. Shawn Perron

    Shawn Perron Supporting Actor

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    I think it would be totally out of line if the HD-DVD camp changed the spec unless all the current player being sold cannot also play it. People have had enough faith to buy thier product. They shouldn't change the spec so that consumers owning the current players won't be able to play HD-DVD movies in the future. If they were really going to make triple layer available in the future, it should have been in the specs from day one.
     
  5. Steve Tannehill

    Steve Tannehill Ambassador

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    Wouldn't be the first time the spec changed, leaving some players unable to take advantage of a disc. Think DTS.

    - Steve
     
  6. RobertDW

    RobertDW Stunt Coordinator

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    Amir has already said in a tread over at AVS that the HD DVD drive in the Toshiba player can be firmware updated to read Three layer discs. I believe he got that info direct from the drive CE or NEC in this case.
     
  7. Shawn Perron

    Shawn Perron Supporting Actor

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    That makes absolutely no sense. If these players were capable of 3 layer reading, why was it not a default feature? Even if they enable it with new firmware, we all know that there will always be a large percentage of these current players who's owners won't ever upgrade the firmware. Most people buy things expecting to plug them in and use them. Upgrading the player's software is probably not something they even knew was possible. Especially since you have to have your manufacturer send you an upgrade disc, burn a cd/dvd yourself or run an ethernet cable to the player. Most people don't even bother sending warranty cards in, and the other 2 options are just far more then you can expect a nontechnical user to bother with.
     
  8. Steve Tannehill

    Steve Tannehill Ambassador

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    There's no need for the language or the angst. I'm sure I'll be able to handle it if an incompatible disc comes my way. And all the disc makers will have to do is put a warning on the packaging. That should be pretty idiot proof, even for me.

    - Steve
     
  9. Harminder

    Harminder Second Unit

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    I think Toshiba has done a great job of trying to get people to stay up to date with firmware upgrades by having a "STOP before you continue" warning paper right when you open the box, letting the new buyer know about what to do if any technical problems arise. There is also a bright pink card asking the buyer to send it in for regular firmware upgrades by mail. Lastly, the instruction manual also teaches the new buyer about firmware upgrades.

    If all that doesn't teach the consumer about the firmware upgrades... then it's time for free tattoo's to be offered on firmware upgrade instructions [​IMG].
     
  10. Glenn Overholt

    Glenn Overholt Producer

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    I don't th9ink that TL is going to help the "HD" cause any. When it comes down to the wire, a movie will come out that runs just over their 45 limit. Then BD will be smiling all the way to the bank.

    Sure, if the HD disks' video quality is downgraded, most people will probably not even notice it, but BD can play that game as well. They can cram more and more stuff onto their disks, but eventually, BD will win.

    Personally though, I think that this TL is just talk - like in a last desperate attempt to get the studios to dive into it. The studios need to realise, and they probably do, that giving HD any support at all will just prolong the war, and that they don't want.

    How many of you would have some sort of an HD set now if there weren't 2 choices?

    Glenn
     
  11. Rob_Walton

    Rob_Walton Second Unit

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    When was the last time Toshiba mentioned 45Gb discs? Not the last time a poster on a message board talked about the possibility, but the last time the company behind the technology itself hyped the TL discs?
     
  12. RobertDW

    RobertDW Stunt Coordinator

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    "so the main merit of Blu-Ray is capacity which potentially could be bigger than an HD-DVD but we proved that we were able to make it up to 45GB on a three layer disc which has two sides and will go up to 95GB and all those kinds of discs are able to be mass produced at an affordable price."

    This from Olivier Van Wynendaele, assistant general marketing Toshiba Europe around the end of June, 2006. You can read the whole thing here.
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=367701
     
  13. Rob_Walton

    Rob_Walton Second Unit

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    Great link, from a fellow Robert! Interesting that he mentions a 2 sided 45Gb disc when I'm fairly sure Amir is talking about having the 3 layers all on one side. I'll also be watching out for that Sept announcement of HD DVD launching in the UK. Chears.
     
  14. RobertDW

    RobertDW Stunt Coordinator

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    I think that Olivier Van Wynendaele is saying they had done three layer single sided plus a three layer both sides which yields around 95GB. [​IMG]
     
  15. Shawn Perron

    Shawn Perron Supporting Actor

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    We have drivers in the USA that own unrepaired cars that have been recalled by the manufacturers for major safety defects. If car companies can't get owners to repair dangerous vehicles, I think the odds of toshiba getting the firmware upgraded on a majority of players to be pretty much doomed.
     
  16. Steve Tannehill

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    People take home video a lot more seriously than cars, as evidenced by this thread.

    - Steve
     
  17. Harminder

    Harminder Second Unit

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    Now that's just reaching up in the sky and hoping to catch a valid point.

    When the consumer sees errors occuring during playback of their HD-DVD they will do one of the following:

    1) Call Toshiba's (excellent) tech support
    2) Call the store where they got it from (although if it was Best Buy or Future Shop they would most likely just goto #3 [​IMG])
    3) Look through the manual of the player or the troubleshooting section for answers
    4) Search the internet/forum's for answers and they will find or stumble upon the idea of upgrading the firmware to fix their player.
     
  18. Mark Zimmer

    Mark Zimmer Producer

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  19. Shawn Perron

    Shawn Perron Supporting Actor

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    1) turn the player on and off and reinsert the disc about 50 times.
    2) hit it rather hard hoping that it will somehow fix the solidstate device
    3) assume thier player is crapping out
    4) get angry at each of those steps

    You are assuming everyone is tech oriented. I think the average person will just assume thier player is broken.
     
  20. Sean Bryan

    Sean Bryan Sean Bryan

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    One of the main aspects of the discussions about adding TL-45 has been that current players could be firmware updated to read triple layer discs (allegedly).
     

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