American Beauty - will it stand the test of time. (1 Viewer)

[Jack Briggs]

Will it last, stand the "test of time"? Dunno.
But you know something that bothers me about it? The first-person narration--Spoiler:given that the narrator's already dead. That's weak, despite all the rest the film has going for it. (Please don't bring up Sunset Boulevard.)
I like the film, but it's contrived in places.
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[Anthony_D]

i doubt that it will...it was ok movie though. kevin spacey is great and his performance will be long remembered.
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[DaveF]

Okay, I can buy the arguement about Fight Club being a better representation of our times than American Beauty, but The Matrix??? I'm sorry, but I don't see any kind of meaningful social commentary, just an escapist action/sci-fi flick.

At the risk of getting further astray... I think that The Matrix will stand the test of time far better than AB. I would say that The Matrix is closest to a new "Star Wars" of the past 20 years, in terms of impact on sci-fi movies, special effects, and so forth.
But I also think that it understands people better and is better social commentary than AB. (ducking and running )

 

[Bruce Hedtke]

I don't think it will stand the test of time, either. The acting was terrific and Chris Cooper (Ricky's dad) is always a pleasure to watch, but the themes it tackled, even by todays standards, aren't all that shocking or unsettling. The world is ever evolving into a more passe place, where things that 10 years ago were unheard of, now are barely noticed. We get used to drag queens and homosexuality and drug use and statutory rape. We don't like it, of course, but we also are never shocked when it happens. In 20, 30, 40 years from now, American Beauty will probably be viewed as a bittersweet homily.
Bruce
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Welcome aboard the Satellite of Love

 

[Tom-G]

quote: I think that The Matrix will stand the test of time far better than AB[/quote]
I vehemently disagree. As Richard said, The Matrix is more of an "escape" movie although it does have very small philosphical roots in questioning reality (that was not well explored). American Beauty could be looked back on as a satire on middle class life. I envisage The Matrix being on par with Tron in another 20 years. It has not pervaded our culture the same way that Star Wars did. I can see the influence that The Matrix has had in movies but can you site examples of it influencing our culture?
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As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day. --Roger Ebert on The Phantom Menace
[Edited last by Tom_G on October 01, 2001 at 07:12 PM]

 

[Derek Miner]

But you know something that bothers me about it?

Jack, I have to disagree with you there. First off, it's not like the fact in question is held until the end. Spacey indicates such at the outset (not explicitly, admittedly).
I think the fact in question gives the film a richer meaning It feels to me like...
Spoiler:...Lester can finally look back on his life objectively, with a hindsight and clarity not possible in life. I think this lends some implied wisdom to his narration that strenghtens the themes.
= Derek =

 

[SteveRS]

I look at American Beauty as a fantastic portrayal of male mid-life crisis.
If anyone above 40 years of age has been on the verge of or gone through a divorce, this movie is not as surreal as it may seem.
I know that I find myself laughing out loud as I can identify with Spacey's character in AB.

 

[Aurel Savin]

I really do not believe that it will stand the test of time.
Did enjoy it but I thought it was not serious enough. I felt the black humor ruined it for me ... made it more of a "movie" rather than a Oscar worthy drama.
The Oscar was not deserved in my opinion (for best film anyway)
BTW: Andrew ... don't even get me started with Magnolia
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RIGHT ... CHEERS!
The Hole

 

[DaveF]

I vehemently disagree. As Richard said, The Matrix is more of an "escape" movie although ... American Beauty could be looked back on as a satire on middle class life.

Tom_G, I guess it's just a matter of what we find engaging and interesting in content. I view American Beauty as an attempt to be satire -- a failed attempt. I enjoyed the performances, and some of the plot was interesting, but overall I found it shallow and lacking insights that make for good commentary and satire.
The Matrix, for me, is more like "The Fugitive" -- a smart, fun action movie at the top of the form. I've watch The Matrix about ten times now, in part and whole, and have discovered it's a very self-consistent and well-realized story. And I find that content (esp. the religious metaphors and allusions) to be better thought out than what I found in AB.
I don't have any specific examples, but I feel that it has entered our cultural fabric, so that references and allusions to it will be remembered. I think it will play well in the years to come, just as "Aliens" and "Terminator" are still gripping despite dated FX.
But I'm a guy who loves "Earnest Goes to Camp", so what do I know?

 

[Jefferson Morris]

Okay, I can buy the arguement about Fight Club being a better representation of our times than American Beauty, but The Matrix??? I'm sorry, but I don't see any kind of meaningful social commentary, just an escapist action/sci-fi flick.

I think it's both, and can be enjoyed on either level. To borrow from AB's ad campaign: "Look closer."
At the risk of going way the heck off topic…
The Matrix may not be 2001, but let's examine the film as a social and spiritual parable for a moment. The thematic similarity to AB arises from the nature of the Matrix itself: it's an ideal metaphor for what is sometimes referred to, in a spiritual (or occasionally political) sense, as "consensus reality"--a construct that rejects anything but conformity and keeps you in the dark about your true potential, while secretly using you as a slave to power the "machine" (i.e., the totalitarian state). Why else would you experience the Matrix firsthand when you "go to work" or "pay your taxes," as Morpheus says.
In the beginning of the film, Neo is in a similar situation to Kevin Spacey in AB--stuck in a dead-end job (and a dead-end life), vaguely wishing to be released from bondage. Neo subsequently embarks upon a spiritual journey of self-awareness, learning about the true nature of the world, and his place within it, as the film begins to artfully blend both eastern and western religious traditions and meld them with the classic science fiction theme--humanity vs. technology (or in this case, Us vs. A.I.)
The obvious Eastern religious parallel is "Neo as Buddha," attaining enlightenment by "awakening" to the true nature of reality, realizing that it is only an illusion ("There is no spoon."), and transcending it. His evangelical mission is then to spread this awareness among others.
And the Western parallel: Neo as prophesied Christ. His Christ-like sacrifice occurs when he willingly sacrifices his life for his fellow man (by going back for Morpheus). Subsequently, he dies at the hands of Agent Smith, and is resurrected, thus confirming his status as cyber-messiah.
(And of course, there's another religious allusion in the "Zion" reference--the ideal nation or society envisaged by Judaism.)
Admittedly, the basic ingredients of the sci-fi stew are familiar to genre fans--a bit of William Gibson, a healthy dose of H.R. Giger, a dash of Cronenberg, generous helpings of John Woo and Hong Kong action cinema--but the ingredients are assembled into a dramatically effective, cohesive whole. To me, that's what separates this film from other VR-related movies that might be just as thematically ambitious, but inept in their dramatic execution. (Since I left my flame-retardant suit at home today, I refuse to name names.)
On top of all that, you've got excellent cinematography, pretty good kung-fu (considering the participants), machine guns, bullet-time, Carrie-Ann Moss in leather, etc. If you're willing to overlook some occasionally clunky dialogue ("Kansas is going bye-bye"), you've got a nice cinematic package here.
That's what makes this film exceptional, in my opinion. It's got some layers to it, AND it works brilliantly as an action thriller. To me, it's truly like having my cake and eating it too. For this reason, I think the comparisons to Star Wars are valid--it's another high-octane, brilliantly crafted piece of sci-fi pop art with mythic and spiritual references that should keep it potent for a number of years to come. I just hope the sequels can live up to their progenitor (which I frankly have to doubt, alas).
--Jefferson Morris

 

[Tom-G]

quote: And I find that content (esp. the religious metaphors and allusions) to be better thought out than what I found in AB.[/quote]
My main problem with The Matrix is that it had to fall back on formula to appeal to the masses. The thousands of rounds of bullets that were fired, did nothing for me or the story. The themes were not thoroughly explored, as the surfaces were only scratched. I enjoyed The Matrix but it was bereft of deep and artistic themes you mentioned. Sure, it did have some of those metaphors, but I don't agree they were thought out as well as they could have been.
quote: Kevin Spacey was horribly miscast (and I'm a big Spacey fan), the script was mediocre, and the subplots were cliched and frought with stereotypes.[/quote]
Walt, can you give specifics of the mediocrity in the script, the cliched subplots, the stereotypes and exactly why Spacey was miscast? I hear and read those comments about so many movies, but the comments usually aren't backed up with facts or even opinions!
I really don't care if you didn't like the film. My enjoyment of it is not contingent on someone else giving their approval, but I'm just curious as to what leads you to making those statements.
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As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day. --Roger Ebert on The Phantom Menace
AIM: Aureus91 / DVDs / ICQ: 58566493
[Edited last by Tom_G on October 03, 2001 at 05:02 PM]

 

[Tom-G]

Walt, with all due respect, I didn't request you to screen it again. I merely inquired about what you found deficient in the film other than the political views. I don't share your opinion about it being a "leftist diatribe" because I didn't see a political agenda in the film. Since you do, that's kosher with me. We can agree to disagree. I don't have a problem with the way one interprets a film. If the political views espoused by the film is the only reason you didn't like the film, again that's fine.
Saying that a film is cliched, and has a poor script doesn't have much weight unless you can go into detail about what brings you to that conclusion. If you can't provide the opinions, I'll have to assume that you are using the standard cliches to describe the film without actually giving it much thought.
Let me reiterate--I don't care if you like or dislike this or any other film. Reading good discussions about a film is more fun rather than just reading banal opinions like "it sucked/was great."
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As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day. --Roger Ebert on The Phantom Menace
AIM: Aureus91 / DVDs / ICQ: 58566493

 

[DaveF]

Tom_G, we definitely have different opinions of The Matrix and American Beauty I see your points, but don't share them (and vice versa, I'm sure) I'll leave it there, since I don't want to turn this into a Matrix thread.
While I don't think AB was a "leftist diatribe," but it clearly had a liberal social perspective:
- Normalizing pedophilia (edited)
- Normalizing marijuana use
- The only function "couple" were the homosexuals
- The former soldier was authoritarian, a gun nut, and a closet homosexual.
There may be more, and those might be debatable, but I think the movie reflects a more socially 'liberal' view than 'conservative.'
[Edited last by DaveF on October 04, 2001 at 09:26 AM]

 

[Richard Kim]

While I don't think AB was a "leftist diatribe," but it clearly had a liberal social perspective:
- Normalizing pedophilia

I strongly disagree with this, the filmmakers were NOT trying to endorse or normalize pedophilia in AB. I believe
this is mentioned in the commentary. It is definitely an homage to Nabokov's Lolita. Would you consider Lolita to have a liberal social perspective too?

 

[DaveF]

I strongly disagree with this

After I made my post, I began second-guessing the validity of that one. It's been a while, so I'll let that drop. Nonetheless, I got a distinctly overall 'liberal' feel. I'm not saying that in a perjorative way; it's just what I felt the bias or 'sensibilities' were behind the movie.
And while I'm a fan of depressing Russian literature I haven't gotten around to Lolita yet (though that would technically be depressing American literature, wouldn't it?)
"All Russians are dark, and I am the darkest of them all." --- a former Russian prof. of mine

 

[Patrick Sun]

I think when films creep into our vocabulary used as short-hand to describe effects, or feelings or conditions, that film has succeeded in getting its point across and seeps into a collective subconsciousness. The Matrix has become one of those films.
When I first saw The Matrix, I didn't much like it (I couldn't get over the "humans as power sources" angle), but the more I watched it, I saw many facets of the human condition getting peeled away in what has to be at that time, the best video game ever to make it to film. But the film is more than just a video game, it covers the whole gamut of what does it mean to exist, and what it means to realize your potential, and how do you get from A to B, it's not always a simple journey, but rather a complex set of circumstances and obstacles that make up for the journey, which sometimes is more important than the actual destination. Video games are full of obstacles in the way of the goals. The Matrix handles these issues wonderfully.
Sure, people get sidetracked by the cool (at the time) special effects - I just wished people realized that many of the effects are manifestations of being jacked into a massive video game, so all the bullets and gunfire and bending of the laws of physics that take place in this video game "space" are for "show" only and aren't meant to be taken totally literally, but moreso metaphorically, and that is why all the superfluous bits of bullets and gunfire are totally acceptable to me upon subsequent viewings of the film, and don't get in the way of my enjoyment of the film.
Now how does this get back to AB? Well, it's a nice commentary of the times (late 1990's) where suburbia doesn't quite seem like what it is on the outside. The film strips the facade away, and what we see isn't too palatable, but it's still a reflection of our times, like it or not. Sure, it may not be your suburbia, but it's out there, AB just turned the knob up to 11 to exaggerate and get the point across. Sure, Spacey and Benning are almost caricatures of such creatures locked into situations that aren't what they envisioned being in in their youth, but life is funny in that way. The situations that both find themselves is very much satirical, and each little episode in the film as a point to make.
AB seeps into many people's subconscious as to what they are facing metaphorically, and what they face in real life, and finds a protagonist that is willing to take the "red pill" and get out of the rut that his current life is in in order to embark on a different journey bacause he realized that he was dead inside, and once he found "purpose" in his life, he was able to direct his energies into something that he could embrace, the discovery of his "self", his "essence", his "reason to exist". But on the way to self-discovery, he meets up with plenty of temptation that comes to those willing to challenge societal convention and think outside of the box. Once Lester decided to "take on the establishment" he found himself free of societal shackles that controlled his impulses and urges, he became all too human.
You could almost super-impose the journey that Lester Burnham takes with Neo from the Matrix in how they were "awakened" one day, and decided to get on a different path, and the film shows us bits of their newfound roadtrip on the way towards a new life.
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[DonaldB]

quote: I haven't gotten around to Lolita yet (though that would technically be depressing American literature, wouldn't it?)[/quote]
Why in the world do you assume that Lolita is depressing? It is in fact one of the most exhilarating experiences one can partake of.
[Edited last by DonaldB on October 04, 2001 at 10:00 AM]

 

[Rich Malloy]

Lolita is satire, not tragedy (though someone should've clued-in Adrian Lyne!).

 

[Rich Malloy]

Oh yes, and as to American Beauty.... No.

 

[MickeS]

Tom, Walt expressed why he didn't like AB, and gave specific examples, in the first page of this thread.
I thought AB was a decent movie, but would have been much better as a TV-series (it reminded me quite a bit of a Swedish TV-series called "Swedish hearts"). Fortunately, we got that TV-series earlier this year: HBO's "Six feet under".
/Mike