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Amazing new DOA3 shots

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Kelly Scott Rickards, Aug 10, 2001.

  1. Kelly Scott Rickards

    Kelly Scott Rickards Stunt Coordinator

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  2. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    I know that people won't like this, but I don't think this game is that impressive. The shots of RL showed bump mapping, huge ships, good uses of lighting, and tons of polygons, but DoA3 just seems to be using High-Res textures and lots of polygons. I think the game will probably look better when it is moving and I am playing it, but nothing so far has me that impressed. Also, the gameplay hasn't changed much from DoA2 (if it changed at all) so I don't see what this game has going for it besides the graphics.
     
  3. Dean Cooper

    Dean Cooper Supporting Actor

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    Ok lets look at 3 shots and analyse them Morgan.
    First lets start with an "unimpressive" DOA3 shot [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The detail that impresses me the most about this screen shot is the blondes hair. Look at the way the sun is shining through it! This screen is displaing a lot all at once, the birds, water and trees in the background all will be moving. In my opinion this is one of the most impressive screen shots of any of the next gen systems so far.
    Ok...now on to RL
    [​IMG]
    At first glance this shot looks outstanding! But if you look closer you'll find that its really showing a limitation. if you look at the detail of the ground, up close it looks great but as you move towards where that great flame ball is it just turns to blurry mush. Its a little dissapointing if you ask me. A lot of the RL shots that I have seen look really good but really don't have all that much stuff in them, and when it does its a hole bunch of really tiny things on a vast flat surface touched up with bump mapping.
    Now on to a different shot:
    [​IMG]
    Look at all of the stuff in this Screen shot. There is no detail loss as the drawing distance gets longer like in the RL shot.
    Dean
     
  4. Camp

    Camp Cinematographer

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    That's because the far background is a photograph pasted in. We're comparing apples to oranges (with a mix of subjectivity).
     
  5. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    Then again, RL is a first generation GCN title, and Nintendo has proven that it can create games generation after generation. MS wants all of its launch titles to look great in order to get people to buy it, but the games themselves have little innovation or marketability behind them. True, they look good, but DoA3 doesn't have much more in terms of gameplay than DoA2:H. Super Smash Brothers: Melee has more characters, levels, better graphics, and new items. DoA3 has more characters, new backgrounds, and better graphics. People are familiar with both series, but SSB has more of a fun factor when playing it against 3 of your friends than DoA2. Also, I said that the game will probably look better when I am playing it and watching it in real-time. What I see so far does not impress me to the point of wanting it more.
    If you had seen any of the shots of the Star Destroyer's engines with the ship next to it, and had realized that the game still had about 6 or 7 months to be finished, you would be amazed. DoA3 is coming after having seen the XB look bad over and over again. MS should have gone the Nintendo route (don't show anything until it is done or at least looks that way) because then I might have a better opinion of their console.
    Also, those screenshots of DoA3 and the snowboarding game were not taken while the game was moving, and if they were, we don't know that. If a game moves at 1 FPS on the XB, it could push more polys than it could with the game at 60 FPS.
    I will say it again: the game will look better when I am playing it, I will own an X-Box by next Spring, and I will enjoy it.
     
  6. Camp

    Camp Cinematographer

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  7. Dave F

    Dave F Cinematographer

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    quote: Then again, RL is a first generation GCN title[/quote]
    So is DOA3.
    This is all silly though. Both look fantastic, and in no way does one game (or console) invalidate the other.
    -Dave
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    DVD List
    [Edited last by Dave F on August 10, 2001 at 11:46 PM]
     
  8. Gary King

    Gary King Second Unit

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    Morgan,
    I have come to the conclusion that you need to look up the word "opinion," so as to differentiate what you type from anything that might be perceived as "factual."
    http://www.m-w.com/
     
  9. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    Let me explain myself:
    The screenshots may not have been taken while the games were in motion. MS has been known to doctor photos of games before releasing them, plus if the games are running at less than 60 FPS, they can look better than if they were at 60 FPS.
    Nintendo games have been known to get better from generation to generation, both graphically and gameplay wise. If the first-gen GCN games look that good and will keep getting better (like they have before on Nintendo consoles), then the later games will look better than DoA3. From what I have heard (this is not proven fact) DoA3 has been in development for longer than RL and has pushed the XB's limits already, if not bordered on them. This means that the graphics might not get better in the next few generations.
    I think that Super Smash Bros.: Melee offers more GAMEPLAY innovation and addition over its predecessor than DoA3. This alons would make me get SSB:M and not DoA3.
    I'm not doubting that DoA3 is great and looks great, but I am saying that the screenshots are not as impressive as the ones for RL. The RL shots point things out, like bump mapping, lighting, textures, or polygons. The DoA3 shots looks like they are showing these thigns all at once, but that lowers the impact of all of the separate parts. If they had pics of the girls' hair moving in the wind, or someone making tracks in the sand, or the tide moving in, then maybe I would be more impressed. I'm a little biased agains the XB because of the bad showing at GameStock (the overall impression I got was disappointment) and E3. I am starting to doubt the XB for many reasons. Developers will put games on the XB and say that it is the only thing that can handle their games because they want to have excellent graphics or less time programming, but they seem to leave the gameplay at a stand-still. Tekken 4 and Final Fantasy X have huge changes in their gameplay, while DoA3 gets better backgrounds. I have yet to see a game on the XB that is exclusive and has an original idea. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but I just haven't seen anything. Nintendo might not have many innovations, but they keep setting benchmarks for series' and creating games that define genres. The PSX and PS2 have games that innovate over their predecessors or base themselves on mutliple games or genres to create a slightly fresh experience. The XB games seem to just be basic ideas. I'm very tired, so I might come off as smug or set in my ways, but I'm just telling the truth as I see it. I may be wrong about some things, but those are what I heard and may not be fact.
     
  10. Dean Cooper

    Dean Cooper Supporting Actor

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    Oh I have a new mpeg of DOA3 gameplay on that beach. if anyone wants me to pass it to them just fire me a private message with your email. its about 6 megs so I don't have webspace to post it.
    Dean
    [Edited last by Dean Cooper on August 11, 2001 at 03:49 AM]
     
  11. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    After "reviewing" those DoA3 shots at the link, I realized that they continue to use textures over and over again (such as for the tree trunk, the palm leaves, the sand). I read in Nintendo Power that Pikmin doesn't use any textures more than once in order to keep a feeling of being in different environments, and Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2 has many textures that are not used over and over again in its huge environments. Pikmin also can have more moving objects on screen at a time than DoA3 appears to have (2 human controlled, the rest are automated), and the aliens in Pikmin change their behavior depending on what you do, in DoA3 the birds just fly by (and they are the only moving things on screen besides the two characters). All of the action on DoA3 that isn't controlled by the players is automated, while the AI in Pikmin reacts to what you do. This shows me that Pikmin has something over DoA3, which is a positive for the GCN. The same could be applied to RL.
     
  12. Dave F

    Dave F Cinematographer

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    Have you even compared the screenshots/mpegs of Pikmin & DOA3? As they are completely different games, the graphics are used very differently.
    All in all, simply amazing leaps of logic.
    -Dave
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    DVD List
    [Edited last by Dave F on August 11, 2001 at 12:46 PM]
     
  13. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    What I am saying is that DoA3 looks spectacular while Pikmin is using the graphics in a more spectacular way. DoA3 has a fighting engine based around the old one, excellent graphics that reuse the same textures and models, and a limited number of characters and AI. Pikmin has excellent graphics, a new style of gameplay (for a Nintendo game), doesn't use any textures more than once, has multiple species in the game (of different models and colors and AI) and there can be more moving objects on-screen in Pikmin that are not being automated than in DoA3. The only thing in DoA3 that moves in real-time without being automated is the camera and the enemy AI.
     
  14. Gary King

    Gary King Second Unit

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    You know Morgan,
    I'm not even sure how to respond to you anymore.
    You argue that you'd prefer shots to have one of either: polygon count, bump mapping, or dynamic lighting, but the minute something comes along that uses all three to fantastic effect, it's a bad thing? What crack are you smoking?
     
  15. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    Let me explain myself.
    Pikmin has more AI being used than DoA3. All the different individual Pikmin are changing their behavior as you play, while the objects in DoA3 (besides the fighters) are not changing at all, but rather just look really good.
    Here's the fact: those DoA3 shots just don't impress me. Whether its the fact that its not moving or that the RL shots are just below the bar that DoA3 has set, I still don't see those DoA3 shots as being something spectacular. RL has to have good graphics in order to represent the environments you are in with immense detail. DoA3 doesn't need that as much, and the added effects just seem like overkill. Yes, they look great, and they add to the game, but there is more known about RLs gameplay than DoA3s gameplay. RL combines elements from several Star Wars games to make this is somewhat new experience, but DoA3 seems like DoA2 with better graphics and more characters. I haven't seen any reviews about DoA3 that explain the differences in the battle system other than a few new moves and the new characters. Some would say the same about RL, but look at Luigi's Mansion (nobody knows much about it and it already has a new style of gameplay). DoA2 is to DoA3 as Super Smash Bros. is to Super Smash Bros. Melee.
     
  16. Greg Black

    Greg Black Second Unit

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    The only thing I will say in relation to DOA3 and the various consoles, is that I think it was extremely unfair of the DOA3 project leader to publicly say that he felt that it was not possible to do on a console other than the XBOX.
    I personally believe that it would be fairly easy to port the game to GameCube. I think it might be able to be ported to PS2 if the vector unit dev tools were available, and it was tailor-made to the PS2 architecture.
    However, let me make myself clear in saying that DOA3 is undeniably gorgeous, and that being on a particular console does not devalue it's graphics.
    I also believe that we will be seeing a version of DOA3 arrive on the GCN early next year.
     
  17. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    If they made DoA3 on the PS2, it would have reduced features and wouldn't have the same quality graphics. Nonetheless, it would sell and would look gorgeous. The only reason it might not work on the GCN is if it was made special for the XB or takes up more than just 1.5 GB on the disc. It is XB exclusive, which means a Director's Cut or Hardcore type version would end up on another console. The GCN controller is probably good to use for fighting games, and I would be interested in seeing what it would play like.
     
  18. Sean Oneil

    Sean Oneil Supporting Actor

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    Could DOA 3 be done on the PS2? Sure. On the GC, Yes.
    But 'Tomb Raider' was also done on the playstation as well as on the PC with a 3dfx card ...and which one would you rather have played? The PC version was night and day better.
    Heck, they could do Pac Man on the 2600, but it did not look or feel as good as the arcade version. Something will get lost in the translation if DOA3 is attempted for the GC or the PS2. Either the backgrounds will not have as much detail or life to them (moving objects like the leaves or the birds) -or the characters will suffer loss of detail in they're clothing, or they're models because of the reduced polygon count. Will it still be DOA 3 in principle? Yes.
    But if you do not care about the presentation at all, then why not just play a game of 'Karate Champ' instead?
    (For those that are too young to remember, 'Karate Champ' was an old Data East arcade game ...pretty much the father of all fighting games)
    Morgan said:
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _
    Nintendo games have been known to get better from generation to generation, both graphically and game play wise
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _
    Well, that is true of all systems. You have to remember that Nintendo is just a big corporate entity that slaps its name on a game and markets it and sells it to kids like you. They really do nothing special to develop games; they just put up the money to have them made. It is not 'Nintendo' games that get better ...it is the people who design and program the games who improve with experience, as well as through the use of newer tools.
    You REALLY need to stop looking at Nintendo as the last word. They have really got they're hooks into you, and your bias shows with every post. It's okay to like Nintendo, just don't project your likes and hopes as facts by making statements like the one above.
    If you ever grow up to get a job programming or working on a game design team, I bet it would piss you off to hear some kid saying that the great game you had made -was so great because 'Nintendo made it'. That is what branding does to people. It can blind them so they cannot see beyond a corporate image. Nintendo never made a great game. Great games were made for Nintendo.
    Also, I think it is unfair to say that the DOA 3 screens do not impress you. I mean ...could YOU personally make something that looks even remotely that beautiful? I mean, come on ..It looks great! So does Rogue Leader. The greatness of one does not have to diminish the greatness of the other.
    [Edited last by Sean Oneil on August 12, 2001 at 12:30 AM]
     
  19. Greg Black

    Greg Black Second Unit

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    Please do not promote the idea that DOA3 is not possible on either the GCN or PS2. That is simply an unsubstantiated rumor.
    Yes, I know it can be translated, but I am talking about a 100% accurate port. I believe that the GameCube would have no problem handling this. The PS2 on the other hand... However nobody really knows what the PS2 is actually capable of until they unlock the secrets of the vector units.
    After assessing the technical aspects of both the XBOX and the GCN, I feel that DOA3 could just as easily be done on the GameCube as on the XBOX.
     
  20. Gary King

    Gary King Second Unit

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    I wouldn't be so sure, Greg. The GCN could get a similar port, but a 100% pixel-accurate port could very well be impossible.
    There are tons of effects that can easily be performed on the Xbox that would either be impractical or impossible to perform in hardware on the other platforms: 3D texturing, filter BLTing, dependent texture lookups, 4+ matrix skinning, LOD bias (on textures, 3D textures, and cube maps), etc.
    Tecmo is clearly using the Microsoft fur rendering technique for the grass in the pictures with Ayane, but that could be performed on other hardware (it's just expensive). However, I'd be willing to wager that the wind blowing through the grass is achieved through vertex shader texgen - something that would need to be performed in software on both the PS2 and GCN.
    It's possible that some of the motion-blur effects are performed by rendering the scene into a texture, and then using filter BLTs, as opposed to traditional accumulation buffer effects.
    It's also possible (but unlikely) that some of the glow effects are performed by using LOD biasing. This would probably be overkill for the desired result, but not all of DoA3 has been shown yet.
    Could you get a similar looking game on the GCN? Probably. But remember, not all of a hardware's specs falls into polygons per second, textures per pass, texels per second, or pixels per second.
     

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