Alien: Covenant (2017) (1 Viewer)

[Richard V]

Science fiction comedies Reggie? Really? Unintentionally maybe.

Galaxy Quest?

 

[dpippel]

Galaxy Quest?

Or Ice Pirates?

 

[Johnny Angell]

Galaxy Quest?

Or Ice Pirates?

I don't understand the point being made? These are intentional sci-fi comedies. Prometheus and Covenant, IMHO, are neither instentional or accidental sci-if comedies.

 

[Richard V]

The original question was whether Sci Fi was ever comedic in intent, so I just suggested one that was.

 

[dpippel]

Galaxy Quest?

I was specifically referring to Prometheus and Alien: Covenant, not science fiction films as a genre.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

I found the "fingering" line to be a completely straight line of dialogue. I didn't chuckle, or even think along the line of it as sexual innuendo. I didn't think it was designed as such. David wanted the correct notes played on the flute so that is what he did.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned.

Maybe...but I do not think Ridley, the writers, nor the actors are that naive. I think they openly know that scene is as close as they can get to Fassbender on Fassbender robot sex. Is it brilliant? No, not at all. But nothing about these prequel films is brilliant. It is funny though that David can only love himself...in the form of Walter. This bit of Narcissus is full on intentional and meant to be totally humorous. I certainly find it surprising that people miss this but hey, that happens a lot and it is not the end of the world. I think Ridley found it so humorous what Fassbender did with David in the first film that he made it central to Covenant. I do not think either Ridley or Fassbender do not understand what they are doing.

 

[Tino]

Must........resist.........must........

 

[Robert Crawford]

Must........resist.........must........

It's really not that hard to do as it takes at least two for an argument/discussion to keep going.

 

[Tino]

It's really not that hard to do as it takes at least two for an argument/discussion to keep going.

Sez you!

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Your perception of these movies is so far away from mine, that I ask once again, are you yanking our chain? Alien Resurrection, yeah that's got some of that and it IMHO it didn't work. work.

No, I am not yanking anybody's chain. I am not kidding. I am not taking shots at these pictures. I am not attempting to annoy anybody. I am discussing films made by a filmmaker I really like because I find what has happened with these projects interesting, if not all that satisfying.

Wouldn't you say it is a good thing that we can watch something and take different things out of it?

I will say this...I do believe the filmmakers in this case are completely yanking our chains and that this is completely intentional.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Can I say something?

Sure, happy to have anybody join in.

I'm someone who wants to participate in these discussions often, but feel forced out because of this loop we end on.

I don't really know what this means. I know I am on a loop with Tino and maybe Johnny but basically I think that loop tends to be about them attempting to change the topic to me rather than the films. I think I have remained polite and done what I could to steer things away from that but...well...not working. Not sure why really but I come here to talk about films and not to have extended conversations about how to conduct a discussion.

Reggie, with all of the respect and love in the world, Prometheus and Alien Covenant were not conceived as broad comedies by their filmmakers.

Yes, I do not believe them to be "broad" comedies. I believe them to be occasionally broad but mostly disguised as science fiction or horror films...meaning I think the intent is to have them appear to be one thing while they are actually something else. I think this is consistent with the fact that people here seem to see these films in different ways. You could watch them on the surface level and think of them as horror or science fiction...though to me I would expect people to attack the idea that I call them science fiction more than calling them comedy. There really is practically no science fiction to them at all really and probably it would be more correct to say horror films than science fiction. I think there is science fiction window dressing in them...they are in space, on space ships, with robots but really telling a science fiction tale is not at all the focus of these films. They seem to be rolling around a lot more in the horror and comedy aspects than they are in science fiction. I also think this is Ridley's intent but spotting the intent of a filmmaker is often unimportant to how an audience member feels about the piece once it is out there in the world for public consumption.

If you found them to be comedic, and you enjoyed it on that level, that's fantastic, and it's not for me to tell you what to enjoy in a movie or how to enjoy it.

Exactly, nor is it for me to tell anybody what they should find funny. People laugh at or are frightened by different things and so what one person finds amusing another may not.

But, on an objective level, Ridley Scott did not set out to make a full-on comedy with either of these films.

Well, no I would say first that if you are saying that you know what is going on in Ridley Scott's head that would not be objective...unless you are Ridley Scott how can you "objectively" state what he set out to do? I would agree though that they are not "full-on comedies" and I do agree that he likely did not set out to make Prometheus as a comedy at all...I think the comedy just grew out of the material. That's a pretty convoluted and conflicted bit of filmmaking and it is often the case that in making a picture that the filmmakers discover different aspects of it along the way. I do however believe, based on what I see when I watch it, that he set out to make Covenant a comedy...albeit disguised as horror with the science fiction window dressing.

Although the flute scene is very funny, and it has meaning as well because David does not relate to human beings nor engineers he does have an attraction to another robot that...humorously...looks just like him...I find the biggest wave to the audience about what is going on may be the part where David plays the score of Prometheus on his flute. I am not sure how others here have considered this but that is a very funny moment and also a moment where the filmmakers are openly signaling to us that we have stepped into parody. I thought it was a hilarious moment where the entire idea was to say to us "OK, step back out of the film and look at what we are doing here." and please if you can name another film that has a character suddenly begin to play the score of the film he is in as if he/she made that score up themselves.

What gets frustrating for myself to keep reading, is when you repeatedly insist that the films are, in fact, comedies.

First I would ask why is this frustrating? Please forgive me here because I do not feel this frustration when other people tell me they think the film is science fiction or horror or whatever they feel it is. I see this as other people taking other things out of the film...I do not see it as a slight against me nor is it frustrating for me. Yes, the films do have science fiction elements, horror elements, and comedy. I am not really surprised nor at all frustrated when people see these things in these pictures. I walked into Prometheus thinking I was walking into a science fiction film. I watched Covenant not really knowing what to expect so maybe I was a bit more open to what it delivered than I was with Prometheus. I also will admit fully...I did not want to see comedy when I watched Prometheus so it turned into a poor experience for me. So, my preconceived notions and desire to see a serious science fiction film got in the way of how I experienced Prometheus. I admit that. It made the film a frustrating experience but I am not at all frustrated by how other people perceived it.

There is no evidence - zero - that these films were objectively intended to be solely humorous.

Yes, I do not think they are intended to be "solely humorous" I think Prometheus ended up being humorous as the project came together but I do think they (Ridley and his fellow filmmakers) saw the humor in it and ran with that in Covenant. Why do I think this? Because I see so much comedy, and much better developed comedy, in Covenant than I saw in Prometheus. So, they seem to have wanted to make this film more humorous than the previous one. However, the humor in this film I think is meant to help contextualize the humor in the previous film. David is a much more comic character in Covenant than he is in Prometheus. He does one amusing thing after another and his attitude toward killing humans, engineers, and most anything else is pretty damn funny...albeit a bit dark...but yes, funny.

When this has been pointed out in previous threads, some of your responses were rather frustrating. For instance, when I pointed this out before, your response was that Ridley didn't understand the films he was making.

Well, let's be clear with what I am saying about Prometheus and Covenant. I am most certainly saying that I feel Ridley understands what he is doing in them. The statement you are referring to that I made had to do with Blade Runner and Ridley wanting to change the story to make Deckard a replicant. Which, yes, I contend makes no sense AND seems to indicate he does not understand the consequences of that TO THAT STORY. I do not think Ridley is particularly good with story. I think he is brilliant with how to visualize a story...but he does not write. He does not seem to consider consequences of how altering aspects of a story can be detrimental to the story as a whole. I also think, and I am not alone in this, that he makes misleading (perhaps intentionally, perhaps not) statements about his films. He is a very sly promoter of his work and is very tuned in to how to get attention. So, I would not rule out the idea that he finds a lot of interesting ways to take advantage of how to promote his pictures on the internet...and some of this may be by not being totally upfront about things. I honestly think he looked long and hard at how to approach Covenant and he probably understood how he could stir the pot.

So, that is what I was saying about Ridley...not that he does not understand all the films he is making.

All I'm saying is, these films were not created to be comedies.

I think that it is probably true he was not thinking comedy when he set out to make Prometheus but I think he was thinking comedy when he set out to make Covenant. Yes, it is not just comedy...there is some horror in the pot too and the science fiction parsley on the side. It is not a comedy like Galaxy Quest or Ice Pirates...no, it is a bit more absurdist than those...but it is comedy. Does that mean we all have to see it as comedy, that we all have to laugh? No, not at all.

If they work for you on that level and you enjoy them through that lens, that's great - but that's also not was intended.

So, are you saying you are Ridely Scott posing as Josh here? Are you stating as fact that you are the person that determines what the intent of the film was? This is the sort of thing I have been accused of here but I always add words like "seems to be" when discussing a filmmakers intent. Honestly, you can't say what was intended. You can say you don't find that flute scene to be funny and be 100% correct though.

So when there are repeated posts where you insist that the films are comedies and that they were made to be funny, well, that sounds like an objective rather than subjective statement ("These films were made to be funny" vs "I find them funny").

No, what I am saying is it certainly seems to me that the intent was to be funny. As evidence I hold up things like the flute scene with Walter, David playing the score from Prometheus on his flute, the exchange between David and Oram in the egg chamber...these things appear to be to be intentionally humorous and over the top. If they were meant to be serious I would find that hard to believe. Also some of these things are so ridiculously funny that you would not do them in a film that you intended in some sort of serious way. I also am saying I would find it very, very hard to believe that Ridley Scott and Michael Fassbender (and others involved) did not understand this and created this comedy unintentionally. Really, that I don't buy.

So, no you do not have to see those things as comedy. No, I am not Ridley Scott. Yes, when I discuss those things I will refer to them as comedy because I find it hard to believe they could be anything else.

Subjectively, its true that they're funny to you.

That's true. The Covenant stuff I found funny and entertaining. In Prometheus...not so much. In that one I agree with Doug that it falls flat but I think that is because they likely did not set out with comic intentions in that one. In Covenant the comedy seems much more thought out and developed. So, it works as this big black comedy about a crazed robot destroying everything in his path. It works for me anyway. I can see it does not work for everybody that way.

Objectively, it's not true that they're comedies.

Again, I think it is kind of funny that you state this here because this is the kind of thing I get accused of. I think you are taking the idea that I am classifying these films only as "comedies" way too far. Yes, they are not comedies like Galaxy Quest and Ice Pirates. Those are comedy first, anything else second. No, that is not what Prometheus and Covenant are. These films tilt the scales differently. So, the comedy tends to be more buried and often much more subtle. This is why I said sci-fi comedy...though really horror comedy would most likely be the best way to describe it. So, there is more balance of these different aspects in the films.

So, yes, if people are going to start trying to compare Covenant to Ice Pirates or Galaxy Quest of course that's not the same. However, there are different kinds of comedies. I thought The Lobster was funny...other people may find it horribly depressing. It does not mean just because a person does not see the comedy or find it funny that it is not there.

No, I don't think Ridley Scott was going for Ice Pirates...Michael Fassbender may have been but Ridley was not. Still I certainly think Ridley saw the humor all over the place in Covenant.

But when any attempt to discuss the film is being forced through your subjective lens of "it's comedy", rather than the objective lens of "this is Ridley Scott's attempt to make a horror/sci-fi/suspense film", it shuts down discussion rather than enhancing it.

Well, I am certainly not trying to shut down discussion. I keep trying to discuss the film and to provide thoughtful responses that inspire further discussion but there seems to be some real dissonance when it comes to the humorous aspects of these pictures. It seems that there is a desire to put these films in a box and that they can only be viewed with respect to the label on the box. I don't see things that way.

I will say this though if Ridley was making a horror/sci-fi/suspense film why are the horror elements laughable (played with a giggle)? Why is the science fiction only represented by being in space in a space ship with robots? Why is the suspense all telegraphed so it is not actually suspenseful?

I think what he is doing is using set-ups that point toward these things but ending them with a punchline rather than horror, or suspense, or science fiction. This leads me to believe the comedy is intentional. I think when Ridley was filming Michael Fassbender on Prometheus he discovered he thought the guy was very funny and that Fassbender took moments where perhaps others did not see comedy and made them humorous. When he got to doing Covenant I think he just let Fassbender run with the comedy. It was probably a hell of a lot of fun to film and Fassbender has been made the central figure in these films now and the one guy you know will be back. He can kill off everybody else but Fassbender will be around for some more chuckles. That is how I see it.

I think all I'm saying, and what I feel is somehow getting lost in translation, is that someone finding something funny does not automatically equal that it is a comedy.

Well, if there is humor built into something and people laugh then it is comedy...at least to those that laugh. Some people claim Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy were not funny. They were too dirty. Oh well, so they don't think that's funny. I can't have an argument and tell them they have to think Pryor is funny. They either do or they don't.

You find Alien Covenant funny; that doesn't mean Blockbuster should file it in the Comedy section. That's all I'm trying to say.

Yes, and that's fine. I don't however see the film as just one thing. It is not just a comedy. I called it science fiction comedy...I should probably call it horror comedy...some people may find it frightening so to them the film is horror. Some people may laugh all the way through so to them it is comedy. Some people will say well it has people in space on space ships with robots so it can only be science fiction. To me the film ticks more than one box so I certainly find it comedy but I see where they set the comedy in space with a couple of funny robots that flirt with an affair with each other and I can see the other characters get killed off in mostly hilarious ways.

Yeah, Blockbuster would put it on the the science fiction shelf but that is because they are not particularly creative with that kind of thing.

 

[Tino]

Just to be clear neither I or Johnny are attempting to steer the discussion away from the film towards Reggie.

I'm done trying to explain to Reggie what the issue is as clearly it is not being understood. I think most of us here do get it but unfortunately Reggie doesn't.

No worries. Carry on all. Like I said I'm done "arguing". Sorry if I have annoyed or offended anyone.

And I still love both Prometheus and Covenant. Two excellent Serious Sci-Fi films in my estimation.

 

[Bryan^H]

No, I am not yanking anybody's chain. I am not kidding. I am not taking shots at these pictures. I am not attempting to annoy anybody. I am discussing films made by a filmmaker I really like because I find what has happened with these projects interesting, if not all that satisfying.

Wouldn't you say it is a good thing that we can watch something and take different things out of it?

I will say this...I do believe the filmmakers in this case are completely yanking our chains and that this is completely intentional.

Ok, so by this logic would James Cameron's "Aliens" qualify as a comedy? There are quite a few funny moments in it, especially some of the lines of dialogue from the Colonial Marines, and the funny moments from Newt.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Ok, so by this logic would James Cameron's "Aliens" qualify as a comedy? There are quite a few funny moments in it, especially some of the lines of dialogue from the Colonial Marines, and the funny moments from Newt.

I think it is trying to be and mostly qualifies as an action film. I think they succeed at making it an action film. They also succeeded in turning Weaver into a female action star...which some people feel is the most important thing about the film. War movie in space, action horror film, I would say that is the area it lives in.

Alien is more suspense and horror and well executed and so I think Mr. Cameron decided he was not going to do that and try to compete so he made an action film instead.

I would say to consider this too...

In Alien the Xeno is a wonderful frightening creature but that is all it is. It does not express anything, it does not do anything other than kill off the crew of the Nostromo, and it is mysterious...we know nothing about it. Knowing nothing about it makes it more frightening. However, that's pretty much all you are going to get out of the Xeno. You can't do anything to develop the Xeno and make it express other stuff. It is not going to sit down and have a chat with Daniels about how everybody misunderstands it and once and a while it would be nice to go out to dinner and go see a show.

Prometheus and Covenant create a new "better" character/monster for the series to build around. David the genocidal maniac robot that just may be cooking up stuff in his lab to destroy all of civilization. This character you can have a chat with. He can long for a companion to play flute and read poetry with while he creates horrible creatures to kill everything. I think Ridley is having a lot more fun and can do a lot more with David than he could ever do with the Xeno. So, this is why he was taking up to possibly 4 films to tell the David story.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

Personally, I appreciate the moments of dark humor in Covenant, but I don't see them as intentional comedies at all. I got a great chuckle the first time the crew member slipped in the blood and laughed out loud the second time it happened. My immature inner 18-yr old giggled at the fingering line. But to me those were isolated incidents in an overall sci-fi film.

If they were conceived as intentional comedies I would expect something like this:

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Maybe in the next film the Xeno's domestic life will be explored...

 

[Johnny Angell]

There's multiple comments about the fingering line being numerous. My reaction to the scene was extreme tension. I just knew that David was going to ram the flute thru Walter's head. I was too tense to think about fingering.

 

[TJPC]

My feeling is that many of the people that really dislike these films came into them not expecting comedies. I certainly did not expect that when I went to see Prometheus. So, honestly...it threw me and pushed me into the camp of really not liking the film. Once I grasped the comedy in the picture I still did not like it and found it all sort of clumsy. So, understanding that it was meant to be funny did not help much with my appreciation of the film.

I went into Covenant not expecting much and thinking I would really dislike it. So, I guess you could say with pretty low expectations. However, I ended up really having a good time watching it and enjoying the comedy in the film much more this time out. It was very funny. It did play off of and make fun of Prometheus and it improved on the jokes in that film in a huge way. All of the winks and nods this time did make me giggle. David playing the theme from Prometheus on his flute was pretty hilarious. The "I'll do the fingering." line nearly had me falling out of my seat laughing. I also think the actors in this film were much better at bringing the comedy across than the actors in Prometheus. So, Fassbender had better support. I thought the scene where Oram is led into the egg chamber by David was wonderfully funny and the "Something to see there." line was hilarious...as was basically their entire exchange.

I also laughed when they chose to have the actors just tromp about with no helmets as the filmmakers knew that people wildly complained about the helmet thing in Prometheus. So, this time out the silly hats and goofball attitudes all worked much better in this picture. They took what was a complaint about Prometheus and made it much more comical. The goofy deaths in Covenant also were more amusing and I laughed instead of rolling my eyes.

Basically, I would call Covenant one of the better sci-fi comedies ever made. It is pretty much close to being Naked Gun in space and Fassbender is dueling Leslie Neilsens except just not always as broad.

Thank goodness I was not sitting next to you in the theatre! My mother-in-law also laughs inappropriately in the movie theatre at dramatic movies, but she has early dementia.

 

[Tino]

Thank goodness I was not sitting next to you in the theatre! My mother-in-law also laughs inappropriately in the movie theatre at dramatic movies, but she has early dementia.

Lol. I wish I could give this post two likes.

 

[Tommy R]

My wife and I both gave a quick but audible chuckle at the finger line at our theater, and we are not ashamed. At the risk of sounding like Reggie, it was CLEARLY Ridley's intention to be a funny line.