Alien Covenant - WAS: Prometheus 2 incoming

Discussion in 'Movies' started by Sam Posten, Sep 24, 2015.

  1. 741 Sep 11, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
    Reggie W

    Reggie W Producer

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    I don't think those things are about the story though. They are just recycled and reworked set pieces and parts. The story being told features David and at least in these first two prequels he is the focus and they have made him the driving force of the Alien universe. The "android" is not just a side character...he is now the central character. He is much more important to this universe than the Xeno and if there is a next film...I would guess there will be...what we will see in the next film is what David has got up to with all those human specimens on the Covenant. This is what this film set up. They are now headed to the planet that they planned to colonize in the first place, the entire crew is asleep and David is in control.

    They can't really make a film that connects to the original Alien because those characters and David had no interaction in any way. They can only attempt to explain how the ship full of eggs that the Nostromo crew finds came to be where it is. This is the issue with this "prequel" series...they have trapped themselves into having to write explanation after explanation rather than creating a good plot and arc. This was a mistake...and for Tino...IN MY OPINION.

    And for the record I only dislike Prometheus. I actually enjoyed Covenant. The David character is a fun character and a complete maniac.
     
  2. 742 Sep 11, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
    Reggie W

    Reggie W Producer

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    I'd like to point out another reason why these two new prequels actually seem to be a reboot. In Alien (1979) the crew is shocked...totally shocked...to learn that Ash is a robot. In the two prequel films it appears that putting a synthetic in every expedition into space is a regular thing. Walter has a little speech about how things evolved because David made his human counterparts feel uncomfortable. Now this does not at all take into consideration that in Aliens (obviously not Scott's film) Ripley is stunned to learn Bishop is an accepted part of the crew. The point being that it is odd that in Alien, taking place many years after these two prequels, the crew is so shocked to learn Ash is a robot as by that time they would/should have been used to the presence of these synthetics being part of a crew...maybe Prometheus was some sort of top secret mission but Covenant appears not to be. So, obviously in this "rebooted" universe humans are quite used to working with robots that look and act like humans long before the Nostromo set off into space. In fact it appears that these robots work as a caretaker that cares for the ship and monitors the safety of the crew during these long hauls while they sleep in this "rebooted" universe.

    However in the original "timeline" if that is what you want to call it, and if you want to think Ridley and friends are considering any films not made by him, it was years after the events of Alien that humans became used to working with synthetic beings.
     
  3. TravisR

    TravisR Studio Mogul

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    I think that's basically a continuity error rather than an indication of a reboot. In Alien, the reveal of Ash being a robot is a surprise to the audience but after that and certainly after Bishop in Aliens, the audience expects a robot in an Alien movie so the movies are written with the idea that the characters are aware of robots on the crew.

    You can even retcon the crew of the Nostromo being surprised by Ash by saying that simple cargo hauling jobs don't have synthetic members or if they do, the crew is aware.
     
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  4. Reggie W

    Reggie W Producer

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    But isn't that sort of the idea of rebooting? That you don't need to keep continuity with the older films? This would be in part why you reboot. Plus you reboot with all new characters...which has happened. Often in a reboot you change or alter the direction of things and they have totally done that making David the central figure in the "universe" wouldn't you say?
     
  5. Jeff Cooper

    Jeff Cooper Screenwriter

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    I think you are absolutely correct on this one. If you watch the 'Advent' feature on the blu-ray, David specifically refers to Daniels as 'My Queen'.

    This is something that can easily be worked into the story. Maybe the actions of David become known and synthetics as a whole are completely banned and not supposed to exist anymore by Alien's time. I just came up with that off the top of my head in 30 seconds, surely professional writers can come up with a much more compelling explanation.
     
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  6. dpippel

    dpippel HTF Premium Member
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    Well, IMO the prequel writers haven't managed to come up with anything very compelling so far. I don't expect their handling of the alien queen backstory to be any different.
     
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  7. Nelson Au

    Nelson Au Executive Producer

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    Maybe the Nostromo crew didn't expect an android on board because it is a commercial towing vehicle. It's not a scientific mission. But the Weyland Yutani corporation secretly includes synthetics in case they find any aliens. I doubt Ridley Scott had that in mind in 1979, but maybe someone did.
     
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  8. 748 Sep 11, 2017
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    Johnny Angell

    Johnny Angell Played With Dinosaurs Member

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    The crew of the Nostromo is surprised Ash is a robot because they weren't told he was a robot. On the reveal, Parker says "Ash is a god damn robot" or something similar. It's clear to me the crew know about robots, but it's customary (as all the other movies indicate) to let the crew know that. Alien was in part, a conspiracy movie. The company conspired to capture the Alien at the expense of the crew, "all other priorities rescinded." Remember the moment when Ripley asks Dallas why Ash can make the decision to keep the facehugger. Dallas says the company gave him that authority.

    Reggie keeps on saying the there's just a bunch of plot points that have nothing to do with Alien. Let's say I read a history of Columbus discovering America, then I read a history of the Pilgrims settling in the New World. Followed by a history of the beginning of the slave trade in the New World. Have I been reading about events that eventually led to the Revolutionary War (and the Civil War) and the founding the the United States? I say I have. Yes they are events that led to other things too, but they led to the founding of the US.

    The events in Prometheus and Covenant are also events that will lead to Alien. Why finding an Alien type ship and the explanation of the Space Jockey can't be considered part of a prequel baffles me. Reggie, you wouldn't be yanking our chains would you?
     
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  9. Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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    He is. He just doesn't know it. :D
     
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  10. WillG

    WillG Producer

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    I could see something like that. We learn in "Aliens" that during the time period of "Alien" (and before) that synthetics had not yet been programmed with behavioral inhibitors. Also that some models were "twitchy". We've now seen what David was capable of (and of course Ash as well) so that could be a plausable theory.

    However, there are a couple of possible snags to this. One is that in Aliens Burke freely talks about what "happened" with Ash on the Nostromo. One might expect for Burke to have been a little more guarded on the subject if synthetics were banned (even though, obviously, he wouldn't have even been alive back then). Another has to do with the "Alien Isolation" video game (which follows Amanda Ripley searching for the answers of what happened to the Nostromo and he mother) and whether or not it's considered canon. In that game, the station where the story takes place is filled with "Working Joe" androids, and they're just as deadly if you are deemed an obstruction to their orders.
     
  11. Tommy R

    Tommy R Second Unit

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    Don't know if it matters, but did the company know that they were going to divert the Nostromo to LV-426 before they left Earth initially? I remember some line from Dallas about Ash being a replacement member of the crew (during the scene where Ripley was hassling Dallas about leaving it to Ash on deciding to take back the dead facehugger). Is it also possible that Dallas knew Ash was an android, and had to keep it non-disclosure to the rest of the crew?
     
  12. Johnny Angell

    Johnny Angell Played With Dinosaurs Member

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    I think they did. Why else the last minute substitute of Ash? I mentioned early there's an extra on Convenat where we see David transmitting the results of his experiments back to Earth. Though not in the movie, the next could easily have something like that.

    I would not consider a video game canon. Ridley might be totally unaware of the game's plot or could easily feel free to ignore it. I can't imagine a top director letting himself be limited by a video game.
     
  13. WillG

    WillG Producer

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    It's never made explicitly clear when the company found out about the signal, but presumably it happened before the Nostromo left Thedus as that's when Dallas indicates was the time when the original science officer was replaced with Ash (it is worth noting however that in the misleadingly named "Director's Cut", Ridley cut the part of the conversation where Dallas mentions the original science office being replaced with Ash). What bugs me though about the company knowing about the signal beforehand though is why did they send the Nostromo to check it out with a crew that was totally unprepared for what they might find and also would just as soon want to kill what they found once they realized its nature. True, Ash was supposed to insure that didn't happen, but up to 6 crew members against 1 isn't the greatest insurance. Why didn't they send a scientific team who all were for the goal of returning the alien (this is also one of the major plotholes of "Aliens". Why in the world would the company want Ripley, who has made it clear that she wants nothing else than the xenomorphs destroyed to be part of the mission)
     
  14. WillG

    WillG Producer

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    Well, there were 3 other Alien movies that were made without Ridley's involvement that are considered canon, so that doesn't preclude the video game to be canon. Plus The game takes place after the events of "Alien" so it doesn't affect Ridley's part of the story at all.
     
  15. Reggie W

    Reggie W Producer

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    So, I guess my question would be, in Alien is Ash supposed to be communicating with the company while they investigate the strange signal and where it comes from. I believe it is made clear that the company knows about the signal and so diverts the Nostromo to check it out. But if they are the first crew to investigate the source of the signal, how would the company know anything about what is there and what the actual source of the signal is? Unless Ash is updating them on everything that is happening? I mean the company would have no idea about the Xeno as that happens by chance. So they could not have been sent there to collect the "alien" and when Ash tells them that his orders are to return with the creature this means he had to have told the company about the creature...so he was communicating with Weyland industries the entire time...right?
     
  16. Reggie W

    Reggie W Producer

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    Well, thus far in the Ridley-verse no queen exists. So, Aliens and what happens in it does not matter and is not "canon" in terms of whatever universe is being built by the Prometheus/Covenant/Alien series of films. All we know about the eggs and facehuggers is David somehow created those in his lab. There is no queen laying eggs, there is a robot madman creating them using human body parts and mysterious goo.

    So, if he invents a "queen" Xeno and it takes him years to do so...how in a short time does he get that queen Xeno to the ship that has been there for centuries on LV-426 and why does he transport the queen there? It is all pretty nonsensical stuff...unless in the Ridley-verse there will be no "queen" David is the eggman and Shaw was the walrus and Tennessee is Ringo and Daniels is Paul.

     
  17. Jeff Cooper

    Jeff Cooper Screenwriter

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  18. dpippel

    dpippel HTF Premium Member
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    :laugh:
     
  19. 759 Sep 14, 2017
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    Reggie W

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    So, I do wonder here if people understand that the tone of Prometheus and Covenant is meant to be campy and comic. This is even more developed in Covenant. This was probably the most jarring shift away from the original Alien which was shot more in the vein of the era it was made. You had working class stiffs being used and abused by "the company" and a bit of a conspiracy vibe with that...it was the decade of Nixon and not far removed from all the assassinations of the 1960s.

    The danger, the horror, the suspense were all played straight forward in Alien 1979.

    These new "prequels" are the comedy SNL version for the present times. Yes, they are silly and stupid but they are meant to be. They are jokey and self reverential and full of camp. Also I just don't think Ridley takes these films seriously at all anymore and basically said so prior to the release of Prometheus.

    So, while the Cinema Sins video is pointing out how silly and funny Covenant is...well...it was meant to be silly and funny. Fassbender gives one of the comic performances of the year. That's not an accident.

    I think if people viewed the films as what they are, science fiction comedies, then they may not be as hard on them. I don't know if everybody gets that they are comedies and I don't know if understanding that they are will improve the films for anybody...but at least for me, the comedy in Covenant was better achieved than in the sloppy Prometheus.
     
  20. Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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    I don't think they're campy or comic. Nor are they intended to be. That may be how you interpreted them but I think we understand just fine thank you. Please don't talk down to us.
     
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