air line pilots union pushing to arm US pilots

quote: Because even ol Bin isn't stupid enough to bring a knife to a gun fight. If you force Hijackers to have to attempt to get a gun onto a plane to take it over you GREATLY increase the chance of catching them before they get on the plane. Think of this as a cold war with terrorists.[/quote]
But he's smart enough to send groups of people to their death by ramming a plane into a building. You can't use the fear of death (being shot) to deter the people on these planes, they're going to die anyways.
quote: And this has to be the most assinine piece of unintellectual rhetoric I have ever read. Obviously whoever wrote this has not read ANY studies on concealed carry laws and their outcome. Ever notice that Vermont has the lowest crime rate in the nation (1 murder per 100,000 people). Vermont's laws simply state that if you are not a felon, or are not committing a crime, then you can carry a concealed firearm. There are no Taxes or fees, no finger printing, no background checks, NO REGISTRATION OF GUNOWNERS, no classes to pass, no licenses. You are treated as innocent unless you prove to be otherwise. Why has Vermont not been flooded in a sea of blood?[/quote]
And a comparison to everyday life to a terrorist incident isn't assinine? Again, simply answer the question of how much can one person do. Certainly you must have seen some of the specials on TV about the training an Air Marshall goes through, do you think you should be giving the pilots the same exact training? Do they have time for that? Will they be able to handle the stress of maybe having to shoot a hostage so they shoot the bad guy? If you think there is any similiarity between carrying a concealed gun as a citizen and a highly trained "special forces" capable person who has the ability to stop multiple "bad guys" then you've been watching to many movies.
I have no problem with guns on planes in the hands of highly trained people. The problem with giving the pilots guns is that they won't have the level of training that is needed to cure the problems. I've shot lots of guns in the past, but if you put me in a highly stressful situation (like a hijacking), and in a room the size of a cockpit (maybe a whole 5-6ft from door to pilot), and add multiple bad guys (these planes had 5 people on them) and I see a recipie for big problems for an untrained person. I would say the average street cop or FBI agent couldn't handle this, there have hundreds if not thousands of situations where cops have had shoot-outs and fired off lots of rounds and not hit anything....they certainly weren't anywhere close to 100% hit rate.
From Edit: Some more thoughts on the bullets and the skin of the plane. That report is interesting, and probably mostly true. But we've seen more than a few incidents of where a plane decompresses and rips big holes in the skin of the plane. Now that's not the norm, but we are talking about a fleet of planes that are getting up there in age in some cases and there is certainly more of a risk of something catestrophic happening.
The post below points out other ideas, and the problems associated with it. You're never going to make this 100% safe, arming pilots isn't the answer, remote control planes isn't the answer, etc, etc. Everybody is so keen to point out El Al, and they have a great record...but there's reason's for it that the American people won't put up with. Racial profiling is the biggest, and they don't care about your civil rights over there...if you are even remotely suspected of something you don't get on the plane...which is fine, but they pick out the Iraqi's, Iranians, Afghani's, etc....and the first thing they base their decision on is looks and race. El Al and the Isreali's also have another little fact that isn't brought up, but when a terrorist incident happens in Isreal, the army/special forces units go out and assasinate the leader of the terrorist organization and his immediate "workers", and they make sure it's fairly public knowledge. This may have been Bin Laden's mistake, he's done all kinds of things to the US in the past, and nobody has really done anything to him.
Andrew
[Edited last by AjayM on September 28, 2001 at 11:09 AM]

 

Damn, and I thought the pilots here where I work were overpaid to begin with. I can only imagine what they'll demand if they get some sort of gun to carry. Hazard pay, extra training pay, "I'm a cop now too" pay, ect.
I have to go along with most everyone else: Air Marshalls, trained by the govt. and paid for by the govt. Reinforced cockpit doors are a big plus as well.
They also need to get rid of the minimum wage, highschool dropouts that staff the security checkpoints. Federalize that as well, just like they do in Europe.
------------------
"...better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it". - Slater, True Romance

 

I recall that some Sky Marshals used to carry concealable S&W Chief Specials loaded with .38 Special light loads and even in some cases Glaser saftey slugs which were perfect in close quarter situations and never really resulted in over penetration. Glasers were special rounds similar to a shotgun concept in a handgun. Used by Will Graham at the end of Manhunter. However firearms and techniques aside, nothing will stop anyone who is really determined. What's really at issue is not whether a .38 can stop a hijacker but why are there hijackers and terrorists in the first place? Weapons and techniques are not answers to terrorism. Terrorism is like a disease, we must stop treating the symptoms and start treating the disease.
Take Care,
Darren.
------------------
Religion is the opium of the masses. Revolution is the opium of the intellectuals.

 

I don't understand why this 'sky-marshalls-on-board' plan has to be temporary, why not make it standard? One positioned at the entrance to first class, and one posted at the entrance to coach, ALL THE TIME, ON EVERY FLIGHT, if anybody tries to start some shit, they are instucted to act and take down the individual or individuals with rounds that turn to dust on impact with the fusilage (I saw a story on these sorts of ammunition the other night) but can do harm to a person.
Secondly, IMHO, THE ABSOLUTE best way to prevent what happend on Sept 11th, is to ban ALL carry ons! This may seem like a nightmare to all these bussinessmen who will cry because they can't have their precious little laptops, but hey, tough shit, this the safty of americans were talking about here. Think about how effective this would be, if your scanned at the terminal and found to be clean of any metel objects and you can't bring anything else on the plane except yourself and the cloths on your back, any would be terrorists that DO happen to have a knife or box cutter in their carry on, and by chance DO happen to get it by security would be pretty friggen powerless as terrorists if their weapons are down in the cargo hold! DOAH!!
------------------
God bless the USA and the men and woman of our military and their families!
[Edited last by John Williamson on September 29, 2001 at 09:04 AM]

 

Ban all carry-ons? Sure, I'd really trust a $3000 laptop to baggage. My wife needs to take an expensive piece of medical equipment with her on trips - this *always* gets brought on as carry-on, there is *zero* chance of her checking it into baggage. The airlines regularly "missplace" my luggage on routine flights.
Did you see the news footage last year of baggage handlers playing basketball with parcels coming off an airplane?
------------------
Nothing In Particular

 

The ban all carry-ons is a tough one because of the theft and destruction issue of laptops and let alone people travelling with young children. For all those who have kids you know how much you have to carry for them on planes.
But, from what I've seen lately the knives found on grounded flights seemed to have been placed within the cabin by insiders. Its interesting that the FBI hasn't arrested anybody for that yet. Maybe their just lurking to see if these people will lead them to more...
Patrick
------------------
My DVD Collection

 

Deane, yes, that is exactly what I was saying, it's not up to you to allow your laptop to go on with you, IT'S NOT PERMITTED ONBOARD WITH YOU IN THE CABIN.
The weapons the terrorists used were placed inside the cabin by insiders? I didn't know this, but then again, I never really heard anythng about exactly where these weapons were before the terrorists whipped them out either.
------------------
God bless the USA and the men and woman of our military and their families!
[Edited last by John Williamson on September 29, 2001 at 11:13 AM]

 

Given the almost unforgivable laxness that has existed in this country relative to the hiring practices of airlines and airports (and other institutions), nothing is surprising.
I think these institutions should be held criminally liable for careless hiring practices. If the CEO or a department head had to spend a little jail time for hiring an accomplist of terrorists due to sloppy background checking, I predict things would improve a notch.
The lack of responsibility is so widespread, from our government agencies down through the industry, it's close to criminal in my mind. What are we paying for with our taxes?
Other than that, I'm pretty mellow on the subject.
Deane

 

Just as a sidenote, I have never had any confidence in air travel WHATSOEVER, I don't believe in it, never have, never will, human beings do not belong in the air, especially in these huge machines that were built by the lowest bidder! I mean it's pretty sad to die just beacuase some guy building the plane left out a bolt or failed to tighten a screw because he wanted to get home in time watch 'Matlock' don't ya think? It's ridiculous this whole business of air travel to me.
Planes are not safe, either from terrorism, human error, or nature. The confidence people have for these things boarders on complacentcy for their own lives, they are absolutly convinced that their going to make it to where they're going alive, when the truth of the matter is that this flight could very likly end in their deaths. Yes I know the statistics, your more likly to get killed in a car crash than on a plane yada yada yada, but at least if i'm in a car crash I know that i'm not going to rocket to earth in a flaming torpedo of terror! I'm not trying to scare anyone, and if I am, I apologize, this is just my take on the whole thing.
So what do you think, will I ever get on a plane?
------------------
God bless the USA and the men and woman of our military and their families!

 

Here's a classic example of the incredible incompetence that is still going on.

 

While dying in an aircraft is a pretty scary idea, I think statistically it is far safer than driving a car. Even when you consider four highjackings, given the number of flights per day, you probably had a better chance of being hit by lightening while singing the national anthem on the second Sunday of the fourth month than being killed in an airplane.
There is no way to make anything completely safe. Sky marshalls would certainly be a major deterent to anyone wishing to hijack a plane, and we'll never see passengers sitting back and doing nothing after the WTC events.
I am far more concerned about security at water supplies, nuclear power plants and elementary schools than I am about air safety as it pertains to terrorism.
We don't need pilots with guns. Just lock the door and stay there.
------------------
Zardoz Online | Burt Lancaster is The Swimmer | dOc

 

I should think the odds of any terrorists attempting to use planes again in the near future have gone way, way down. Just too much security to deal with to have any hope of succeeding.
If they are still going to attempt anything, it will be something different, IMO. They seem to have been very good at exploring the weakest areas and using them against us. Flying is no longer one of the weakest areas.
Easy for me to day, I don't fly anymore.
Deane

 

After we have armed the pilots, the Federal Marshalls, eliminated the cutlery (as the meals as I have recently heard!) eliminated all carry ons, stood in line for two hours before each flight, authorized F-16 pilots to shoot us down, bombed bin-laden, caused the expense of flying to probably double, what have we done that would have prevented the terrorists from doing what they did two weeks ago?
The terrorists exploited a significant behavior, attitude, mind set to their advantage. Everyone on the plane was taught to be submissive and to be reactive. The very minute that the passengers of the fourth plane learned that this was a different type of hijacking they immediately changed their behavior and did what was necessary to thwart the goal of the terrorists.
No matter what is done, there can be a countermeasure. I am surprised the terrorists didn't carve out a bar of soap in the shape of a gun. They would have been as successful!
Even with no armed pilots, Federal Marshalls, but public will be much more vigilant on all public vehicles.
Each year there are several incidents of suicide by police. With so many guns on planes it won't take long to appeal to some sick soul to use a pilot to dispatch him in a more notorious manner than on the street. Wasn't this the plot of the original Airport?
No option should be ruled out from discussion. I just think that whatever we do will be more of a reaction to the action of a small, sick, determined group did than a true solution of the problem.
------------------