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Advice on a New Receiver (TrueHD, DTS-HD) (1 Viewer)

Jari K

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Yes, some of these Onkyo-models are indeed the "cheapest way" at the moment to get that HDMI 1.3-receiver (obviously you´ll get HDMI 1.1/1.2-models more cheaply). They´ve also performed rather well in the reviews and such.

What brands/models are the "best" is of course another matter and I doubt that simple "black&white" answers to that are available. In the end, you just kinda "pick one" from the several "good options". New models are coming all the time..

I just recently read some reviews (from my local magazine) from the high-end A/V-receivers (mainly Yamaha DSP-Z11 and Denon AVC-A1HD) that cost around 5-7000$, and even with them, there were some minor "issues". It´s really hard to find one receiver, that can absolutely do *everything*, support *everything* and not have some "issues" that are blown out of proportion in the forums...

Since HDMI 1.3-receivers have just arrived to the stores (mainly) during this year, perhaps it´s just better to wait a while and get one in next year (more models, cheaper prices, "bug free?", etc). Then again, I couldn´t wait, so don´t listen to me. ;)
 

Dave Moritz

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It seems like the days of a/v gear that simply works every time is over. There is alot of software driven features now and there seems to be no perfect gear anymore. I understand that even McIntosh had some bugs with there newer preamp. And with all the heat generating components being placed into todays receievers I see models like the Onkyo's being more comonplace in the future. PC's have processors and graphics card cpu's that run pretty hot but most people don't give that a moments thought.


Getting back to the topics of finding a receiver now. When it boils down to it there is alot of good gear out there, and very few companies making actual junk. I may be alittle off but IMHO I think that with all the features they are putting into these receivers. I beleive that they cut perfromance here and there and the internal amplifier is one of the areas effected.




Out of the following brands right now Yamaha, Pioneer, Marantz, Sony and Onkyo. Onkyo is the one brand that is coming closest to its advertised power specifications, the others are falling short. They also seem to be using smaller transformers which would account for the difference in the specsifications. Internal scalers are another area where many models seem to stumble as well. Just my theory at this particular time.

There are two ways I can go with my receiver upgrade at this time. I could go with a lower end receiver than what I really want. For example I could purchase a Onkyo TX-SR805, Yamaha RX-V1800, Pioneer Elite VSX-91TXH or a Sony STR-DA4300 and add a power amp and a external scaler later. Or get a higher end receiver now and maybe add something later if needed, depending on how that particular model works out? And for the low end maybe the Sony 4300 was a bad example, not sure I would want it even with a external amplifier? One of the only ways I would have a 4300 ES in my a/v rack, I would have to add a external amplifer like a Emotiva MPS-2.7 with 200 watts per channel at 8 ohms X 7 (MSRP $1,699) and a Denon DVP-602ci Digital Video Processor with Silicon Optix HQV Realta Video Processing ( MSRP $2,499). Not sure that combo with the 4300 would be worth it? As the end cost for 4300 with upgrades would end up being around $5,197. :eek: I would be much better off with the Denon AVR-5308ci at that price.

While I am not locking myself down to a particular model receiver yet. The Onkyo's are offering alot of features and performance for the money and its hard to pass up, even with the heat issue. The Denon's cost a little more but they offer good performance and reputation for good gear. I have wanted a Denon receiver for over 8 years now so picking an Onkyo, Integra or even a Yamaha is difficult. The main thing is to listen to my options and look at the features and specications and match it up to my needs and not going by the name on the front alone. While that should not be the deciding factor we all know that certain brands have better reputations than others.

At this time it all depends on the money I can save up in a resonable amount of time and how patient I am. The good thing about going with the cheaper model is that it can be upgraded with external products.

Out of everything available and having the newer internal decoding these would be my choices to work with.

My lower end choices:
Onkyo TX-SR805 (Most bang for the buck)
Onkyo TX-SR705 (I think this one has more issues than other, not sure ?)
Yamaha RX-V863 (Hate the way the face plate looks)
Yamaha RX-V1800
Pioneer VSX-91TXH
Integra DTR-6.8
Integra DTR-7.8

Higher end models:
Marantz SR-7002
Marantz SR-8002
Pioneer Elite VSX-92TXH
Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH
Onkyo TX-SR875
Onkyo TX-NR905
Yamaha RX-V3800
Denon AVR-3808ci
Denon AVR-4308ci
Integra DTR-8.8

But currently I have narrowed it down to these choice: (Could change)
Denon AVR-3808ci
Onkyo TX-NR905
Onkyo TX-SR805
 

Jari K

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This is probably only my personal opinion, but I believe that the time of "external scalers" is gone (at least in some degree). Many HD-players and A/V-receivers have now quality upscaling (at least "good enough" for most of the movie buffs - even the demanding ones) and there are actually "limits" to this upscaling-hype (talking generally here, not about you Dave).

DVD has that certain resolution (NTSC/PAL) and certain "limitations" and even the best, most kick-ass upscaling can´t make SD to "High Definition". It just doesn´t happen, not even with these "Super Upconversions" or other stuff that the marketing departments are trying to invent (if you ask me, they´re mainly BS).

The truth is, that "upscaling" is now also another marketing thing and companies like to throw these "Silicon Optix" and "HQV" to the spec sheet. Why? They want to advertise "quality upscaling". Fair enough and good for the customers. Other reason still is, that there are people, who can´t make the difference between these upscaling chips (I can´t really blame them!). They only base their "knowledge" to the other people in the forums etc, that have said that e.g. "Silicon Optix is da s**t". ;) Of course, I don´t say that it isn´t "da s**t", just that I doubt that there´s one magical upscaling chip that rules the planet.

Don´t get me wrong. I have huge amount of SD DVDs at home and I still enjoy them (for the years to come, probably). And I also enjoy "quality upscaling". But every time I watch some SD DVD - even with that "quality upscaling", I can see that it´s "not HD"..
 

Dave Moritz

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I totally agree with you on this. I have a decent size SD-DVD collection and for example if I was to watch Pirates of the Caribbean 2: Deadmans Chest for example. The movie does not look as good as it's Blu-ray counterpart in 1080p. The same could be said when compairing SD-DVD to HD-DVD even. Depending on the player the upscaling can help make the SD-DVD look better but it is still not HD. And I will leave you with one example where I do not think upscaling looked better, I watched the SD-DVD of War Of The Worlds with Tom Cruise and it looked horrible IMHO.
 

gebby44

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The one that I would highly recommend that has only been mentioned in passing is the the Marantz line. Either the SR7002 or SR8002 are great choices that crushed all the Onkyo's, Pioneer's, Denon's up to the 3808 that I tested. The only one that comes close to either of these Marantz with regards to sound quality for both music AND movies is the Denon 4308. If you plan on spending up to $1500 range, I would beg you to try those Marantz's. Play some of your favorite music and you may find, like I did, that Marantz simply kills most others for music quality.
 

John Dirk

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Just ordered the Onkyo SR805. I'll plan on adding a cooling fan, although my research indicates there are already 2 inside the unit. I know it's not a strong performer in video scaling, but I'll probably let my projector handle this task. Other than that it appears to have everything I will need for the forseeable future. I was also looking at the 875, but didn't think the Ethernet port, extra 10 WPC, and HQV upscaling were worth the extra $$ for my situation. I'd be lying if I didn't admit I'm a little nervous about the reliablilty, but it's more than likely the result of reading too many non-professional reviews. We'll soon see as my unit should be here by next Wednesday.

John
 

Dave Moritz

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Since I have some time before I have the money saved up. I will take your advise Gebby44 and do some critical listening of the Marantz SR7002 and SR8002. I have not gone to listen to a Marantz in a few years at least. It was alot easier when I was living in the Los Angeles area to be able to check out many different brands. I will have to find a Marantz dealer in the area.

The Marantz was one next one in line to the Onkyo to come closer to the advertised power output listed on company websites. I have done listening to the Denon and have always loved there gear. And the top model for Onkyo are not only stout but sound very good as well. One thing that Marantz has in common with Denon and Onkyo is its use of the Audyssey MultEQ XT Auto-Setup/Room EQ. The nice thing about the SR-8002 is that it’s amplifier sections should be very good and it to like the Onkyo 905 and Denon 5308, it to has a toroidal power transformer.

Marantz SR7002
110 Watts x 7 Channel Advertised Power Output

Sound & Vision Bench Test
Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)
1 channel driven: 150/236 watts (21.8/23.7 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 93 watts (19.7 dBW)
7 channels driven (8 ohms): 83 watts (19.2 dBW)


Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH
140 Watts x 7 (20Hz - 20 kHz, 8 ohms, .09% THD) Advertised Power Output

Sound & Vision Bench Test
Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)
1 channel driven: 178/300 W (22.5/24.8 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 84 W* (19.2 dBW)
7 channels driven (8 ohms): 61 W* (17.9 dBW)


Onkyo TX-SR875
140 Watts x 7 Channel Advertised Power Output

Sound & Vision Bench Test
Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)
1 channel driven: 201/322 watts (23/25.1 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 141 watts (21.5 dBW)
7 channels driven (8 ohms): 128 watts (21.1 dBW)


Denon AVR-4308ci
140 Watts x 7 Channel Advertised Power Output

Sound & Vision Bench Test
Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)
1 channel driven: 171/280 W (22.3/24.5 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 126 W (21 dBW)
7 channels driven (8 ohms): 111 W (20.5 dBW)

Delivers __ under advertised power output according to Sound & Vision:
2). Marantz SR7002 27 Watts
4). Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH 79 Watts
1). Onkyo TX-SR875 12 Watts
3). Denon AVR-3808ci 29 Watts


My current purchase list (as of 5/21/08):
1). Onkyo TX-NR905
2). Denon AVR-3808ci
3). Onkyo TX-SR805

Receivers I am going to check out for consideration and possible change of purchase list:
1). Integra DTR-7.8
2). Marantz SR-7002
3). Marantz SR-8002


Gebby44 I will let you know what I thought and if they do or do not get added to the purchase list. I would not be surprised if the list does not go through another change once the new models come out. The Onkyo 905 remains a stout receiver and a model that may be discontinued if Onkyo is indeed make very little money on it, due to manufacturing costs. But one thing I am certain of is that there will be one really nice receiver sitting in my a/v rack before the end of January 09’ at the absolute latest!
 

Dave Moritz

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I would very much like to hear how this works out for you and how well it performs. As it is also one of my current options as well to replace my current Yamaha RX-V995. Do you currently have a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player right now? The plus side that even with the scaler not being a strong performer, as long as the scaler in your HD player or projector are good. Then the scaler in the receiver will not matter especially since a 1080p signal would just pass straight through anyway. And you can allways defeat the receivers scaler so can be by passed and all sources would not be effected.

The first thing I would do once you receive your new 805 IMHO would be to verify what firmware version is installed. If it does not have the newest version I would have it updated asap. One of the fixes is the DTS-bomb has been corrected. As well as other problems that I am not aware of but I would update it if needed.

One possibility that I have thought about if I to purchased the 805 is that I would possible add a power amp later on. I was thinking about adding a Emotiva MPS-2 7 channel power amp to the config, that is if I buy the 805. But of course I shall see what happens once I have a receiver in my hot little hands.

Emotiva MPS-2 7 channel power amp (MSRP $1,699)
200 watts per channel at 8 ohms
300w/ch @ 4 ohms
400w/ch @ 2 ohms
THD less than .015%, 20Hz-20kHz with 80kHz measurement bandwidth
Completely Stable into 2 ohm loads
High efficiency Class H power amplifier design
350VA Toroidal transformer
modular mono block design
weighs 115 pounds
5 year warranty
 

gene c

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When I was researching receivers a couple of months ago Marantz was always in contention. Especially the factory refurbs at ac4l.com. Major drawbacks of the 8002/7002 were lack of 1080p video up-conversion, which really wasn't that important to me, and higher price (which was). At the time, Marantz receivers were not discounted very much by authorized dealers compared to other brands. But then again, the 905 was also close to msrp (at the time).
 

John Dirk

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I'll keep you posted through the forum on my experience with the Onkyo. "No" I don't currently own a Blu Ray or HD DVD player. That will be changing soon though.

John
 

Jari K

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Like I said earlier, take all the forum-talk with that "grain of salt". Even the "pro reviewers" can make mistakes or focus too much on the things that doesn´t really concern you. They might rave about the quality of "upscaling" (or the lack of it), but it´s good to remember that "audio" is quite important also.. ;) If you buy that quality Blu-ray-player later on, use that for upscaling. Pretty much "problem solved" (if you´re not happy with receiver´s upscaling).
 

Jari K

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Btw. Recent (June 2008, it says) "Home Theater" magazine (their home page here: Home Theater: Home Page - you can also find some of their reviews/info from there) has A/V-receiver comparison, which solely focuses on the "video" processing. It´s pretty good and informative (perhaps still slightly too brief for my taste etc) article.

While it doesn´t want to put these receivers in a strict order - or praise some and mock the other (wise move, IMO), you can see some interesting results.

E.g. Onkyo TX-SR875 "passes" almost every test (digital/analog) and the upscaling is "excellent" (it upscales also via HDMI, it seems). For this (around 1000$, I believe) price range, it does very good job with "video". It uses "Reon" chip (from "Silicon Optix") for upscaling ("flagship" chip seems to be "Realta" from "Silicon Optix", so "Reon" is one step down from that).

In any case, there were some differences with these receivers.

Of course it´s best to read the whole article (and then other reviews and such) to make that final decision (there´s e.g. no word on the "heat-issues" with these receivers). And: This test was for the "video" ONLY.

No word for the "audio"-side of these receivers, which probably should be the main thing when buying receiver. IMO, at least.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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I wonder if the 805 would be noticeably better than say the cheap Yamaha RX-V663 as a preamp. Of course, the Yamaha doesn't come w/ Audessy setup -- but has Yamaha's own proprietary setup -- and only offers 2 HDMI inputs. But then, you'll have a bit more $$$ left to play w/ for the power amp though. And if you're on a tight budget, maybe you could even buy that power amp used right here on HTF. I see a couple good 5-channel units up for sale right now, ie. Parasound and Rotel. If I don't already have an (albeit aging) B&K 5-channel amp myself, I would probably spring for one of those two right now to go w/ the Yamaha -- well, I suppose I might've already bought the 805 by now, if I don't already have my old B&K. :P

_Man_
 

Jari K

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This shouldn´t be any problem. I actually read one recent article where they tested 3 set-up systems (YPAO - Yamaha/MCACC - Pioneer/Audyssey - Onkyo) and YPAO got the best results. Of course, one test and one article (you can hardly drew any huge conclusions), but my point is, that not always the "bigger is better" etc. ;) I´m sure they all do a decent job, IF the environment (room size/shape, acoustics, etc) is good.

Like I also said earlier, not all "set-up"-systems are the same and equal with different models, so cheaper models might have "cheaper set-up" system. So e.g. "YPAO" in some (more) cheaper Yamaha-model is not the "same YPAO" as in the higher end Yamaha-models.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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Well, if anyone wants the Onkyo 805, the new price slash down to ~$600 offered by Vanns (and matched by Amazon) should be very enticing now. I wonder if this is a signal that pricing of the 805 will start reflecting model-year-end discounts in anticipation of a new replacement model -- afterall, Onkyo did already start coming out w/ something new for the lower model(s).

Hmmm...

_Man_
 

Jari K

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"New models" are basically coming all the time. It´s just a matter of time with every brand. So basically you can "always wait" for something "better" (perhaps better, you´ll never truly know beforehand, of course). Welcome to the world of A/V. ;)
 

Dave Moritz

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Hello Man-Fai Wong,

I think at this particular time I would much rather have the 805 over the 663. I want more than 2 HDMI and 3 is my minimum requirement. It also does not meet my power requirements of 100 watts minum per channel. The 663 advertised rating is 95 watts per channel and it is more likely putting out 80 watts per channel. I also have a feeling that the comonent video may not be 100MHz rated, but I can not say for sure. And I agree with the statement that the surround features for YAPO will most likely not be the same as a higher end Yamaha. So I would be stuck with low power and so so performance for awhile, until I could afford to buy a nice power amp for it. I am willing to bet that my current 995 would run rings around the 663 with no problems. It is just a model to far down the line and I want to make sure that my next receiver is an upgrade. It is a good way to save money but it lacks in features and performance. Also an a side note that is a small thing actually, I hate the way that group of Yamaha's look with a pasion. And I am not sure what those Scene buttons are really there for but the entire face looks cheap and ugly, that's just my onest opion.
 

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Back to the Marantz suggestion. When I previously spoke about doing a demo for the Paradigm Monitor 11's and Focal 726 speakers with the Denon 3808, and the fact that they had no bass at all and sounded tin-can like, until they were hooked up to another receiver. The other receiver was a Marantz, but I had never heard of it before so I never gave it a second look. It sounded much better for music, but again there could have been something set up seriously wrong in the 3808.

My only concern with the Marantz is that it reports only 125W RMS/channel and it is quite expensive. Other receivers report 140W RMS/channel and are cheaper.
 

Dave Moritz

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You really can not go on that spec alone as it can be affected by the way the company comes up with that rating. Some companies cheat and rate a power amp at 1KHz with one channel or all 5, 6 or 7 channels at 1KHz. Instead of rating the amplifiers at 20Hz - 20KHz all channels driven. You also need to look at dynamic output, power output at 8 Ohms, 4 Omhs and 2 Omhs if they have a rating. And I also consider how much power the reciever draws from the wall socket. Advertised wattage can be misleading sometimes if the company used little tricks to pad the numbers.

If I could I would go to a few retailers and buy a receiver within a week. But since I have to save for it, thats not going to happen. I hate waiting for a new receiver.:frowning: But I am going to look at the Marantz receivers, mainly the 7002 and 8002.
 

gene c

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I doubt the difference between 125 and 140 would be very noticable. And if it was, I don't think it would be a drastic difference.

As for price, Marantz receivers aren't discounted as deeply as some others until the new models start arriving. Then better deals are available on the previous years models from sites like ac4l.com. All of these different receivers each have their strengths and weaknesses which is what makes the decision so difficult.
 

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