Adire Tempest and Stryke AV15

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Tab Nichols, Aug 20, 2003.

  1. Tab Nichols

    Tab Nichols Stunt Coordinator

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    Now, Im sure this has been done before, but it just figures, that the day I actually decide to use the search function on the site, its down!

    Anywho, for the last 6 months, all Ive been thinking about is the Adire Tempest. In fact, I was literally about to order it today, when someone suggested that I look at the AV before making that decision.

    Now, Im building a dedicated HT that will be used 75% for movies, and 25% for music. I am going to be running the Rythmik Audio A350 amplifier (thanks to a great deal on it by a member on this board). Its specs can be seen here.

    So now I'm torn! Which one to go with?

    Price is a factor, being that in Canada, I can get the Tempest for $201.00 CDN SHIPPED. The AV15 is $270 CDN + SHIPPING. Shipping is bound to be another $60 CDN bringing the total for the AV to $330 CDN.


    Now, does anyone have an opinion on the comparison between these two drivers? For the price difference of $129 CDN, is it worth going to the AV? Personally, after comparing the specs, I dont think the AV really is a superior driver, so Im thinking not, BUT.. I figured Id put this question to the floor.

    What do you folks think? [​IMG]

    BTW, if you want to comparethe specs yourselves, here are the two spec sheets:
    Tempest
    AV15


    Thanks!!
     
  2. Justin Ward

    Justin Ward Supporting Actor

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    This really belongs in DIY but anyway....

    From what I hear the AV15 is a significant improvement over the Tempest. But I'm not sure if it is worth $130 more. If it is mostly HT use, a large vented Tempest can push some serious SPLs and go very deep. If you can live with a large box the Tempest is a good choice.
     
  3. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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    Yes, the AV15 is a superior driver. It has larger Xmax and greater power handling than the Tempest. That's a pretty big price difference in Canadian dollars. If you were in the US I'd say the slight price difference would make the AV15 more appealing.

    Either driver will make for an excellent sub though.
     
  4. Jonny K

    Jonny K Second Unit

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    Well I'm no expert, but I can say that I have a self-built Tempest sub and it's all I could ever want for bass! It's the "Adire Alignment" plan from Adire's site, and I'm using a 250W amplifier.

    With the amplifier at about 1/5th of it's volume, the bass is soooo strong in some movies that I actually give myself a headache. How's 115 dB explosions for ya? And it works beautifully for all bass frequencies. Watching "The Haunting" DTS is a real experience. [​IMG]

    Now I don't know anything about the AV15, but I strongly recommend the Tempest!


    Jonny K.
     
  5. Andrew Pratt

    Andrew Pratt Producer

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    I have dual tempests and would trade them tomorrow for AV15's if costs weren't so high. That said for us canucks its not that much more to go dual tempests vs a single AV15 and we can get three tempests for the price of the tumult so providing you have the space tempests are the better deal. When space is an issue though the pricer drivers start to make a lot more sense.
     
  6. Tab Nichols

    Tab Nichols Stunt Coordinator

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  7. Justin Ward

    Justin Ward Supporting Actor

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    Personally I'd go dual Tempest. In a large vented enclosure they don't need much power to reach full excursion. My SBB4 Tempest can bottom with about 200watts but that is with insane SPLs. You could just put the 2 Tempests in the same box and wire using only one VC from each driver, resulting in 4 ohms and almost 200 watts per driver.
     
  8. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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  9. Tab Nichols

    Tab Nichols Stunt Coordinator

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    This is what I was planning on for the Tempest:

    "The Adire alignment design is a net 214L cabinet, tuned to 15.4 Hz. It is stuffed with 64 ounces of polyfill. It’s external dimensions are 37. 5” tall, 22” wide,
    and 22” deep. This includes the height from 4” tall legs. It is vented with a pair of FP3 three inch flared port kits, with 11” long center tubes. The Tempest and
    vents are mounted on the bottom, downfiring."

    For the AV, I find the Stryke site is pretty much useless as far as enclosure designs go, so lets assume something similar.

    Thanks for the help. [​IMG]
     
  10. Ryan Schnacke

    Ryan Schnacke Supporting Actor

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    Here's what I'm seeing. The Tempest runs out of excursion with about 290 watts at 25Hz in that alignment. So yes, you could bottom it out. But ...

    Because the AV15 is less sensitive than the Tempest it requires more power to get it to move the same amount of air. It also tends to like a little smaller box. I came up with 170L tuned to 15.4Hz and with 380 watts powering it, it looks EXACTLY like the Tempest at 290 watts. I mean these two are line-on-line!

    This means that you won't actually get any more maximum performance with either woofer. With the Tempest you'll be excursion limited. With the AV15 you'll be power limited. But both will reach their limits at the same time.

    At this point, the advantages of the AV15 are:
    It works in a smaller box (porting might be difficult)
    You're guaranteed not to bottom out the woofer
    You could upgrade the amplifier later for more output

    Now this is the point where some of the stronger AV15 advocates come in and say something to the effect of
    "These higher performance woofers will perform better than the sims suggest"
    or
    "They perform closer to ideal than other woofers like the Tempest"

    Those guys might be absolutely right, but its pretty hard for me to take that on faith. The AV woofers seem like they need about 750 watts to REALLY hit their potential in a typical application. And for some reason Stryke lists their thermal power handling at 500 watts but will claim that they handle 700 watts just fine if you ask them directly. Why don't they spec them for 700 watts then? The Tempest is spec'ed to handle 750 watts thermally!
     
  11. Steve Stogel

    Steve Stogel Supporting Actor

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    Quick question, Ryan, or anybody else who knows. Is it going to bottom out at that point or just start to have more distortion when pushed further? I bought a DIY Tempest (270l enclosure, two 4" flared ports tuned around 18 IIRC), and I'm pushing it with 150w. I've been told it can handle much, much more power, and that it won't bottom out with, say, more than 300w, but you will start to have distortion (something to do with xmax versus xmus). Just wanted to know if your sim was to the "bottom out" point or the "here comes some distortion" point. Thanks.

    Steve
     
  12. Tab Nichols

    Tab Nichols Stunt Coordinator

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    Ryan, thank you for your response. Thats exaclty where my train of tought was leading me. So for the AV to be of any benefit to me, not only would I have to spend the additional $130 for the driver, but another $300 for an amp capable of driving the sub to the point where I would actually see (hear) a difference.


     
  13. Ryan Schnacke

    Ryan Schnacke Supporting Actor

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    Steve,
    Excellent question. The full answer is this:

    Xmag is the maximum excursion before significant distortion sets in. It is a measure of the power of the woofer's "motor"

    Xsus is the maximum excursion before the suspension runs out. That's where you bottom.

    Xmax is the lesser of Xmag or Xsus. Usually that's Xmag but sometimes it can be Xsus. I don't know how I would feel about having Xmag > Xsus. It seems like the motor could overdrive the woofer too easily. But I think the Adire Tumult falls into this category and you'd be hard pressed to bottom that woofer.

    For the Tempest the Xmax (Xmag) is about 16mm each way and I think Xsus is somewhere around 20 - 22mm. I was simulating to Xmax (Xmag) so driving it harder should just cause more distortion. But of course we should remember that there's a big difference between a simulation and the real world. Production variances could cause one Tempest to be significantly more sensitive than another. Likewise, not every Rythmik amp puts out exactly 380 watts. Simulations just provide us with a best guess.
     
  14. Ryan Schnacke

    Ryan Schnacke Supporting Actor

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    Tab,

    "Can I get a definition of ideal please? Especially for my application and tastes, as they would have to know all about that before making a blanket statement like that one."

    I think that by "ideal" we are talking about a woofer that performs as its T/S parameters indicate. There are inevitably some simplifications or assumptions in any simulation model and these will always reduce the accuracy of the model to some degree. An "ideal" specimen would exhibit very small deviation from the model's predicted behavior.

    I agree with your conclusions. The Rythmik amp is a great deal and has really cool features but I'm just not convinced its the best choice for the Stryke AV woofers. It'd be perfect for the Parts Express Titanic Mk2 and its obviously got extra headroom when used with a Tempest/Shiva. So long as you don't need your Tempest/Rythmik sub to be completely idiot-proof then you should be fine. Its pretty obvious when these woofers bottom out. If it happens, turn it down and note what your limit was. And remember that the suspension will loosen up a bit as it breaks in.
     
  15. Jack Gilvey

    Jack Gilvey Producer

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    I'd go with the AV15 in 250L ported to 18Hz with dual flared 4" ports with the Rythmic. You'll never look back.

    I've not used the 15", but I replaced my Shiva in an EBS alignment with an AV12 and found it a worthwhile upgrade... even with the same amp. I tend not to pay all that much attention to a driver's calculated "efficiency", as there's apparently bit more to it in reality. Although the simulations are fun, I have a harder time than some taking their performance estimates completely on faith (I default, as in this case, to my own experience). Invaluable for coming up with alignments, though.
    If you had an existing Tempest box I might not bother depending on performance goals. For a new sub, I'd definitely go with the AV15 (as good as the Tempest is... I've owned a few of those, too).
     
  16. steve nn

    steve nn Cinematographer

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    Being the owner of a AV15 in a 225L enclosure with 450 watts feeding it from my QSC... I think the 380 watt Rythmic amp would be a good choice for this driver in a ported enclosure this size.
     
  17. Ryan Schnacke

    Ryan Schnacke Supporting Actor

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    There you go - some good advise from guys who have actually used the Stryke drivers.

    Jack,
    I know we talked about this a while back, but I'm curious what specifically improved with the AV woofer vs the Shiva in the same cabinet and same amp?

    Was it greater output? How did you measure the limits of the Shiva? Push it till it bottoms? How many extra dB's did you gain?

    Or was it a quality of sound improvement?

    I hope these don't sound like the kind of questions that start a fight. I'm honestly curious. I've learned and benefitted from your input in the past and I appreciate it.

    Back on topic - the same box would result in a much different alignment for the Av12 than the Shiva. Much higher Qts gives the AV12 a boost at tuning where the Shiva looks more like an EBS (obviously). The sims show their output just about equal at 20Hz but above that the Shiva leads by 2-3dB at 250 watts. Sims ... I know ... but it certainly does indicate that they should sound different. And if they were both calibrated then I could certainly understand the AV12 having more output at 20Hz for a given volume level. But I'd expect to have to turn up the subwoofer level 2-3dB to get the AV12 to calibrate.
     
  18. Frank Carter

    Frank Carter Screenwriter

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    I've fed 750w to a AV15 in a sealed enclosure in my HT and there was no problems with it. I even put it in a car with 900 watts going to it and had no problems.
     
  19. Ryan Schnacke

    Ryan Schnacke Supporting Actor

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    Thanks, Jack.

    "I was able to calibrate to the same level as with the Shiva using an Adire AVA250, and so get the same output, but the AV12 sailed through those scenes that bottomed the Shiva. Subjectively the AV12 sounded cleaner, I guess since it was performing well within its limits while the Shiva was overextended at times."

    That's the kind of measurable results I was hoping for.
     

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