Adire Sadhara vs. SVS CS Ultra

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by David Judah, Jul 12, 2004.

  1. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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    I see both are around the same price and are most likely the best bets in overall performance in the under $1000 price range cylinders.

    While it is probably splitting hairs about which one is better since they would both be excellent performers, do you think the XBL^2 technology with the presumed greater Xmax of the Sadhara, would give it the edge over the CS Ultra?

    DJ
     
  2. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    I understand you are going apples-apples with the two passive models, but I would throw the PC-Ultra into the mix too.

    For $1,150 (plus shipping) you get the on-board 525 watt Indigo-built digital BASH amp with features like continuously variable phase, a single band PEQ, and custom designed infrasonic filters and EQ curves for each tune point. The amp is specifically tailored around that subwoofer and driver and you get plug-n-play ease of hook-up.

    The Xmax of the TV-12 is about 28-30 mm. The underhung aluminum VC is a custom-designed, flat-wound, 10-layer unit that has a thermal power handling rating of several thousand watts for 8-10 seconds. TV-12 builder TC-Sounds acknowledges that no one else uses that particular VC technology because it is very expensive.

    And I agree - both will be strong performers. I think the Sadhara was tested recently by Yates in the Ultimate AV mag? Regardless, there's only one way to tell for sure - get them both in the same backyard under the same conditions and run 2 meter ground plane FR sweeps, dynamic compression, and THD limited output at several frequencies in the operating bandwith. Whichever unit overall plays flatter, deeper, louder, and cleaner takes home the prize. Both units are vented alignment with similar native tune points and should throw down similar impulse response and group delay numbers, too.
     
  3. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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    That would be a great test and alot of fun...so get to it.[​IMG]

    I didn't realize the TV-12 was capable of that much excursion--it puts it right up their with the Sadhara, after all. So everything being pretty close to equal, I wonder if the unique porting of the Sadhara would give it an edge in being able to take more power before port compression starts to become a factor.

    I haven't done the math on how much cross-sectional area it has and to what size conventional port it would be similiar to, although I read somewhere it was estimated to be comparable to a 7 1/4" port(I don't know if that is accurate or not, but if so, that's huge--I thought I was going overboard with my 6" port in my Temblor 2001 design).

    Regardless, both are adequately ported for common household usage, although I know many of us here like to take things to the limit to see how far our subs will go--that's half the fun, even though we won't spend much time there during normal operation.

    Thanks for the response, Ed.

    DJ
     
  4. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    You'll be the first to know when that pair of subs shows up on my doorstep. I wouldn't hold your breath, though. [​IMG]

    All kidding aside, it's hard to say which variable will control when evaluating dynamic compression. Could be the amp limiter, VC heat build-up, driver suspension, port flow restriction, etc.

    It would seem best to simply run FR sweeps at progressively louder volumes until the curve becomes non-linear. Ultimately something will cause dynamic/power compression. While it might be interesting from an academic perspective to determine exactly which variable controls, it really doesn't matter to the end user; all he knows is that the sub is starting to audibly compress dynamics.

    I agree, the whole point of headroom isn't to see how loud the sub can play; it's to keep the sub unstressed and linear at your preferred playback volumes. If you like Reference Level playback, well you'd better have a lotta sub or things will get messy in a hurry. [​IMG]
     
  5. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

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    I don't know but it would be really cool to see someone compare the two with measurements. The Sadhara got a very positive review recently and it does indeed have very low distortion. But there is still much more information out there about the SVS subwoofers... they've been around longer. I believe Adire designed the Sadhara specifically to compete with the top end SVS cylinders, so I would not be surprised if it had competitive performance. They have used an unusual "concentric" vented enclosure which has a large effective port area, though I think the tuning is relatively high at around 23Hz.
     
  6. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    Dan has said in another thread the port is equivalent to about a 6.75" round port. A 6.75" port has the same cross sectional area as three 4" round ports.
     
  7. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

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    That seems to be about the same as what the CS-Ultra has (three 3" flared ports IIRC), then.
     
  8. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel Cinematographer

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    When comparing port flow capabilities it is very important to consider the flaring of the port. A 4" port with nominal industry flaring (which flares out to 6" on each end) will flow about the same amount of air as a 6" port with no flaring. So if you had a 6.75" circular port with no flaring...it would flow slightly more than a single 4" flared port. Three 3" flared ports flow about 150% of what a single 4" flared port can flow. When considering a subwoofer with multiple porting...total flow is important, but you also need to consider the flexibility (multiple extension points) the design offers too.

    Tom V.
    SVS
     
  9. Jack Gilvey

    Jack Gilvey Producer

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  10. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    Or perhaps, realize this might be asking a lot, give us the port air speed numbers you've found cause compression and then audible noise for straight vs flared?

    Are the 25 m/s for flared and 17 m/s for straight numbers I've read to shoot for with the modelling software us DIYers use reasonably accurate from your experimental experience?
     
  11. frank manrique

    frank manrique Supporting Actor

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    quote:

    "I agree, the whole point of headroom isn't to see how loud the sub can play; it's to keep the sub unstressed and linear at your preferred playback volumes. If you like Reference Level playback, well you'd better have a lotta sub or things will get messy in a hurry."

    ...so perhaps my using EIGHT single-ported 16-46 (and the recently acquired B4+ twins if the idea works) subs in unison is not that looney...crazy of an idea after all, eh?... [​IMG]

    -THTS

    "...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."
     
  12. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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    No, it's still crazy, Frank.[​IMG] How do you have them all placed and how big is the room(auditorium)?
     
  13. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    I think your choice needs to be evaluated within some frame of reference.

    If - at your preferred playback volume - dynamics remain uncompressed, and distortion and port noise remain inaudible, then you have "enough" sub.

    However as Mark Seaton recently pointed out, even those of us who think we have enough sub are often surprised (even startled) by the improvement adding another brings. It's one of those "you don't know what you're missing until you try it" type deals.

    With that said, unless you are trying to fill a small stadium with bass, that you now have "enough" subwoofer for even the largest of conventional rooms. [​IMG]
     
  14. Mark Seaton

    Mark Seaton Supporting Actor

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    So true Ed. It is true that if you are only going to place the sub, adjust the levels, and "let 'er rip" you could very likely have "enough" much short of Frank's dual octet of 12s. On the other hand, as you begin to futher optomize, and pull out common peaks in the response (it's easy to hit 130dB when you have a 10-15dB peak at the listening position) and push the really low end that you find more to be just enough.

    Most people also don't grasp just how much of a hit you take in efficiency and output when you want to get much lower, where "a little lower" can become significant fractions of an octave. To put some numbers with that statement, consider that Hoffman's Iron Law dictates that the maximum possible efficiency for a given low frequency cut-off drops 9dB when you half the box volume. I am not saying you will get this with any given driver, but those are the general guidelines of physics, and even designs which edge at or past the limits via tricks of bandpassing or other methods follow very similar limitations of box size, efficiency and low extension.

    Of course this would be better posted in Frank's main thread, but if I were trying to integrate the dual octet in his moderate size room, I would probably plug a port on all of the 16-46s and keep the B4s crankin in 25Hz mode and only have the cylindars helping out in the bottom. Of course I'm known to compromise the 130+dB capability to get well below 15Hz. [​IMG]
     
  15. frank manrique

    frank manrique Supporting Actor

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    quote:

    "No, it's still crazy, Frank."

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    "How do you have them all placed and how big is the room(auditorium)?"

    I hope to take a few shots of the ensemble and post the pics here at HTF very soon...or so I hope. You'll be able to see what I've done with the 16-46s then.
    About the room's dimensions...all you have to do is check out my "thread" regarding the B4+ twins arrival, etc. for pertinent information; there are explained there (a bit longwinded, though; sorry)... [​IMG]

    -THTS

    "...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."
     
  16. frank manrique

    frank manrique Supporting Actor

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    quote:

    "...It is true that if you are only going to place the sub, adjust the levels, and "let 'er rip" you could very likely have "enough" much short of Frank's dual octet of 12s. On the other hand, as you begin to futher optomize, and pull out common peaks in the response (it's easy to hit 130dB when you have a 10-15dB peak at the listening position) and push the really low end that you find more to be just enough.

    Most people also don't grasp just how much of a hit you take in efficiency and output when you want to get much lower, where "a little lower" can become significant fractions of an octave. To put some numbers with that statement, consider that Hoffman's Iron Law dictates that the maximum possible efficiency for a given low frequency cut-off drops 9dB when you half the box volume. I am not saying you will get this with any given driver, but those are the general guidelines of physics, and even designs which edge at or past the limits via tricks of bandpassing or other methods follow very similar limitations of box size, efficiency and low extension."

    Need I say more?... [​IMG]

    "...if I were trying to integrate the dual octet in his moderate size room, I would probably plug a port on all of the 16-46s and keep the B4s crankin in 25Hz mode and only have the cylindars helping out in the bottom. Of course I'm known to compromise the 130+dB capability to get well below 15Hz."

    That's about what I had in mind all along, Mark, but there is one itsy-bitsy, tiny fly in the oinment: my particular 16-46 subs only have one rather large vent, not the three smaller vents newer models come equipped with nowadays (am I at some disadvantage here?), although they're supposed do the 16 Hz performance bit all day long.
    I like your idea about using the B4+s in their "native" 25 Hz operating mode, so I'll try that configuration first when the time comes. Thank you for suggesting it!... [​IMG]

    -THTS

    "...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."
     
  17. frank manrique

    frank manrique Supporting Actor

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    quote:

    "I think your choice needs to be evaluated within some frame of reference."

    ...OK...am all ears... [​IMG]

    "If - at your preferred playback volume - dynamics remain uncompressed, and distortion and port noise remain inaudible, then you have "enough" sub."

    Which is exactly what I've been aiming to accomplish for quite a while...

    "...It's one of those "you don't know what you're missing until you try it" type deals."

    Indeed!... [​IMG]

    "With that said, unless you are trying to fill a small stadium with bass, that you now have "enough" subwoofer for even the largest of conventional rooms."

    I buy that for now, Ed. However, am planning to put you, Craig, and Mark to work [​IMG] as soon as I find the exact internal volume of a 35/70mm cinema house that is now owned by a fellow film collector, hi-fi sound reproduction fan, and serious videophile good friend of mine; we'd like to know just how many infrabass units will be required not only produce very low frequencies (16 Hz will do, I reckon) but being able to do it with unquestionable authority as well.

    I realize what this sort of thing entails, but getting a fairly good idea about what will take to produce truly outstanding, uncompromising bass performance for an auditorium full of moviegoers will be highly appreciated it...

    -THTS

    "...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."
     
  18. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    That stuff's right up Mark's alley; it's the reason the Servo-Drive was originally developed.

    Your 16-46 CS subs are tuned to 16 Hz with a single 4" flared vent. The triple 3" ports found on the Plus models allows for variable tuning. Even if you had the 16-46 CS-Plus model, the benefits of tuning them any deeper would be questionable. With room gain from a moderate size room, any 16 Hz tuned SV sub will dig strong to about 12 Hz before signing off. That's "deep enough" in just about anyone's book.

    Integrating eight 16-46 CS subs with two B4+ subs (running in the 25 Hz tune) shouldn't be that tricky. If you wanted the 16-46's to shore up the 12-23 Hz bandwidth only, then you'll need a custom low pass filter for them.

    You'll probably have to experiment with frequency and slope, but a 4th order low pass set at 22-23 Hz should provide a smooth transition to the dual B4+. Check with Tom V and see what he thinks.
     
  19. Mark Seaton

    Mark Seaton Supporting Actor

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    Let's move this tangent of the discussion back to Frank's thread. I'll post later, but to answer Frank's questions, yes, I know of a simple way to mod your 16-46 to a lower tune, and a QSC DSP-3, 30 or 4 can execute the crossover you need very easily, but I'm still bugging QSC to adjust the software/firmware to allow settings of filter centers below 20Hz. The unit responds nicely to at least 10Hz. For your auditorium, our designer, Tom Danley, has two different designs outlined which would easily meet the task with 2-4 units and 3-10kW of power, yet they aren't real products... yet. The reality is that a large space that puts listeners at 60' from the speaker location needs ~140dB equivalent at 1m to deliver 115dB at those seats.

    See you over in the original thread.
     
  20. frank manrique

    frank manrique Supporting Actor

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    quote:

    "That stuff's right up Mark's alley; it's the reason the Servo-Drive was originally developed."

    Umm...I've known about the Servo-Drive subbass system' existence way back when I still ran the Southern California Audio Society (we even made couple of attempts to get hold of them to ask them for demonstrations at one of our meetings but couldn't for some reason). However, I didn't realize the S-D subwoofer was actually intended for commercial applications (which is fine as far as I am concerned).

    "Your 16-46 CS subs are tuned to 16 Hz with a single 4" flared vent. The triple 3" ports found on the Plus models allows for variable tuning. Even if you had the 16-46 CS-Plus model, the benefits of tuning them any deeper would be questionable. With room gain from a moderate size room, any 16 Hz tuned SV sub will dig strong to about 12 Hz before signing off. That's "deep enough" in just about anyone's book."

    I ain't complaining about not being able to reach below 16 Hz for in fact I know the 16-46s are more than capable to do the 12 Hz bit, and do so with an authority that stops short of being heart-stopping(well, with all eight units screaming in unison anyway)!
    Anyhow, I too agree the 16-46s produce a low end that should be "deep enough" to satisfy just about anyone with a penchant for true infrasonic bass performance.

    "Integrating eight 16-46 CS subs with two B4+ subs (running in the 25 Hz tune) shouldn't be that tricky. If you wanted the 16-46's to shore up the 12-23 Hz bandwidth only, then you'll need a custom low pass filter for them."

    Agree...absolutely; that is why I've been thinking about contacting Phil Marchand (I love his products!) to request a specially configured 3-way electronic crossover unit to aid me achieve that very end. I'll see what transpires...

    "You'll probably have to experiment with frequency and slope, but a 4th order low pass set at 22-23 Hz should provide a smooth transition to the dual B4+. Check with Tom V and see what he thinks."

    Aha! Great suggestions, Ed. Thanks for the input! [​IMG]
    I'll be checking with Tom V himself about my current quirky 16-46/B4+ twins subs ideas soon...

    -THTS

    "...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."
     

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