Adire Dharman test results from Tom Nousaine... (1 Viewer)

[Sebastien David]

Jack: sorry then, you know how hard it is to realize whether a person understands the humour or not of a post on a forum.

and where did i see all that? throughout the thread, I won't go back and specify which posts, i have better things to do. but i could refer to the "crap"/"crappy"/"crapping" example off the top of my mind. and I'm not saying WHO was guilty there, just saying that it's an example of deformation and misrepresentation, be it intentional or not.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Sebastian, I see two threads going on here. One concerns consternation over improving products, which is a bit wacky. The other concerns the "industry guidelines", which I think has been presented well. At least I don't think I've misrepresented anything, my forensic technnique doesn't rely on strawmen, never has.

Jack: sorry then, you know how hard it is to realize whether a person understands the humour or not of a post on a forum.

Yes, which is why conversations over a beer are more fulfilling than those online. Well, one reason.

 

[John Morris]

...will not get dragged back into this... ohhh... the dark side is calling me....ohhh, I must resist...

Ahhh, there... now, what were we talking about? Oh yeah, can anyone compare and contrast the frequency responses of the Dharman, as posted, and the latest iteration of the 20-39cs?

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

JG sez,

>>>The "most up to date" data is not the advantage I was referring to, of course. When the list was posted with the SVS data, it had an obvious advantage of a few years (?) over something like the Servo 15 (or other subs that had been tested well before the SVS), yet this data is routinely used for comparison without any qualifications.

Even if each sub's data was a year behind then-current production, the Servo 15's data would have been much further removed since it was measured that much earlier.

 

[Sebastien David]

about the "industry standard" issue and whether a company should pay for quicker results...

I say a company would be prety stupid NOT to take advantage of this. I think leveling the playing field by nobody taking advantage of it would be leveling it to its lowest level. Data should be available as quickly as possible. Standards are there to be changed. Then again, this is only my opinion, and I liken this debate to a capitalist/socialist debate (not Tom I'm not accusing you of socialism, even though it isn't even a crime).

one says: so what with inequalities? look out for number one!

the other one says: no everybody should be equal and get the same stuff, even if it's less than what they could get with the other system.

in french we have a good expression for this "niveller par le bas", which means to level the field to it's lowest level, but it sounds nicer. sure, it's the easiest solution since it doesn't require change, but it doesn't mean it's the best solution.

now i could see a problem with that reasoning if it meant that after a while everybody was paying for data and the lead time was back up to a couple months because TN is human and can only review one sub at a time. but I have a feeling that the lead time would still be much smaller than it is now for unpaying companies.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Tom V,

The information was there for all to see, it was not hidden in any way. If you did not suggest that it was omitted or somehow hidden, please accept my apologies. that is what I took your comment to infer. Mike

 

[Mike Knapp]

My apology stands.

Mike

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

John, I think TN measured the 20-39 as +/-2.5dB from 25-75hz in his 7500 cu-ft room. I dont have the review close by, but I think there was some reference to expecting 20hz freq-extension in a typical size room.

TV

 

[Dzung Pham]

Mike Knapp said:

There was nothing kept from anyone. All the information released on the Dharman was released in the very first post made by Adire....the info was there all along, there have been no updates. Tom's statement is a mis-representation of the facts. Some simple research will bear this out.

I have to disagree with this statement. Adire's first post about the measurements is here. There is no mention of any anomalies in the measured frequency response. It is later mentioned in this thread a day later after someone asks about the frequency response. However, Adire was forthcoming in terms of mentioning the problem (but do not mention it on their website although they do give the SPL numbers). I would like to hear more specific information about the problem though. Flat above 50Hz is nice but what happened below 50Hz?

 

[Holadem]

As far as I can tell, all TV said was "I'm not a fan of something someone else did." I never saw him accuse anyone of shady business practices, falsifying data, presenting useless data etc. . He just said "Everyone else seems to suffer the wait, I think they should to." Adire says "We don't want to." End of story. I never saw him say Adire shouldn't be allowed to do what they did or should be punished for it, or no one should buy their fine products because of it, just that he doesn't like the practice. A legitimiate opinion, but people will disagree and he never protested that. All of the posts accusing him of anything else seem ridiculous.

I am afraid it is not that simple.

I agree that all TV said was that he disagrees with Adire paying to get their subs tested faster that everyone.

But we are not in courtroom, where a juge can tell the jury to "disregard a remark" or 'stick only to the evidence presented" ot tell the witness to only reply "Yes" or "No". This is real life, where we as human being process the information were are handed as part of a context. There will be no lawyer tricks played here today. Yes, all TV said was the above, but the implications of unethical business practice are very clear, period.

Therefore I don't think I am misrepresenting TV or putting words in his mouth when I say he thinks Adire cheated.

Some of us happen to disagree, that is all.

--

Holadem

 

[Jack Gilvey]

When I see MY work being referenced by other manufacturers in an inaccurate manner(only IMO)...to put their performance in a better "light"...it does get me riled up. It would get me just as riled up if I had nothing to do with SVS too. Those who know me well, know that's a fact.

Yes, I believe that it would. My basic disagreement (and that's all it is) is that I don't think it's any more inaccurate than the rest of the list.

My mention of the Stryke report had nothing to do with it's accuracy or lack thereof, but the fact that it was arrived at by also bypassing the "industry standard" waiting period. That's what I don't recall being an issue at the time.

 

[John Morris]

TV: That's impressive. Would you guess that the latest 20-39cs exhibits that same, or better, frequency response flatness? Do the CS+, Ultra and SS also exhibit the same flatness? If so, is this a function of subwoofer enclosure shape... as in sonotube versus cube?

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

SD, I agree with you more or less,
IDEALLY---it would be great to see constant updates to the hundreds of subwoofers on the list.
My concern is maintaining the *levelest* playing field possible when the consumer is presented these numbers.
Maybe there should be 2 lists? One we know has data taken from published reviews...which WILL have random advantages. And one we know has had a very quick turn around time because the manufacturer paid for it. Of course the second list...would need to be updated every 1-3 months I guess to maintain some sort of accuracy in itself?(man,TN would be RAKING in the deniro here...so I'm sure he'd love this ).
The average consumer is going to be initially confused by this...but if the manufacturers take the time to explain the reasoning behind it whenever the issue comes up(for example, when the manufacturer is comparing the *qucik turnaround* data to the *standard published data*)...it shouldn't be a major concern really.
TV

 

[Sebastien David]

i believe we're making progress here gentlemen!

 

[Jack Gilvey]

However, Adire was forthcoming in terms of mentioning the problem (but do not mention it on their website although they do give the SPL numbers). I would like to hear more specific information about the problem though. Flat above 50Hz is nice but what happened below 50Hz?

It's apparently an amp problem, as mentioned in that thread, and this one. I believe TN will do another sample, as Dan said. It shouldn't be taken as representative of the model, I wouldn't think, just as an SVS with a bad driver shouldn't . If Dan says that's the problem, I believe that's it, as I would Tom. -3db that high is not what a Shiva in that alignment delivers.

 

[Bob_A]

Wow...an argument with Mr. Vodhanel that has not involved myself?
As for the FR data...didn't Mr. Wiggins say that TN will retest it because of (possibly) a faulty amp?

 

[Jack Gilvey]

. Of course the second list...would need to be updated every 1-3 months I guess to maintain some sort of accuracy in itself?

I'd think such a list would make the first list more obsolete than it appears even now. Current data is best.
I always thought it would be cool to send a sub I built to TN, just to see. I bet it would be expensive, though.

 

[John Morris]

In America, generally you get what you pay for... If a company wants to pay to get a quicker response to press, then so what? All that needs to be done with the list is to also list the testing date for each product along with the disclaimer such as: Reviews older than 1 year old may no longer be valid as the manufacturer may have upgraded, improved or discontinued that tested subwoofer. Please contact the mamufacturer for additional information on those subwoofers.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Bob, powered towers are on the agenda for pages 7 through 9. Make sure you're available.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>TV: That's impressive. Would you guess that the latest 20-39cs exhibits that same, or better, frequency response flatness?