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Adding Atmos speakers? (1 Viewer)

Luke Cool

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Grills are for aesthetics and protection. On the ceiling, protection is rarely an issue. So if you prefer the way it looks without the grill, I can think of no good reason to install one.

Another possibility to conceder is, if you find a grill that better fits the theme you want to create in the room, use that one instead.
 

John Dirk

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That page you linked is arguing that the placement they show is better then reflecting Atmos speakers, because how reflections come through is unpredictable. OK, that might be. It certainly will be more predictable. but Atmos speakers are supposed to be overhead, as in, not up and to the sides, but over your head.

I've explored this a bit more and also had a conversation with SVS. My speakers are already "overhead" but they are not directly overhead which is likely what you meant. They are mounted high and to the sides in my room which is about 10.6 ft in total width. For "optimal" performance I agree I should probably move them in towards the main listening position a couple of feet so that they are directly overhead, but this would produce an aesthetic result I am not willing to accept. I'm not trying to tell others what to do but I think I'll stick with what I have.

I also visited my local high end Home Theater shop. They agreed with your position, "Atmos speakers should be directly overhead" and recommended some beautiful speakers from Golden Ear [the Supersat 3's I think] to replace my SVS Prime Elevations. I don't doubt this would produce better overall performance but I do think the difference would be subtle enough [in my room] so as to render it irrelevant.

Regarding SVS, it's not the company it used to be. If you'd like me to detail my personal involvement with that company, I can give more detail.

I've had nothing but exceptional experiences with SVS over many years. Respectfully, if you're going to put a statement like this out there you should be ready to [publicly] back it up as you implied you could.
 

JohnRice

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I've had nothing but exceptional experiences with SVS over many years. Respectfully, if you're going to put a statement like this out there you should be ready to [publicly] back it up as you implied you could.
Now I see that post might have been misleading, but SVS is NOTHING like the company it started as. In fact, I think it started when Ron Stimpson and Tom Vodhanel crossed paths here on HTF. It was real people, starting up a company, designing subwoofers with exceptional value. I did their first real product photography for a few years in those early days. My first product shoot for them was actually in Ron's living room, and then I set up a mobile studio in his garage for some more product shots. Eventually they were sold to an equity firm, and now it's just not the personal endeavor it originally was. Tom went on to co-found Power Sound Audio, and I think he's still there. I haven't had contact with Ron in years, though.

I like to know there's a person who primarily designed my equipment, and who they are. It was Dan D'Agostino with my old Aragon 4004II amp. It was the late Jim Thiel with my Thiel speakers. It's Andrew Jones with my Elac Uni-Fi speakers, and Lonnie Vaughn with my Emotiva equipment. SVS started as that kind of company. It isn't anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. If I got a new sub, it would probably be a PSA, if for no other reason than it would be designed by the same guy who designed my (and your) SVS PB12-Plus2.
 

Relic1Golf

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I'm in the same situation as the OP, except I recently acquired a 7.2 Dolby Atmos capable amp. What I'm wondering, however is, how do I implement Atmos speakers into my system when it's already 7.1 surround and all speaker designations are already in use? Do I need to replace the front speakers with Atmos capable ones (not my first choice since I have matched B&Ws all around and B&W doesn't offer Atmos front speakers), or do I need to use the zone 2 pre-outs for some powered Atmos speakers, or is bi-amping an option? In any case, I believe my only option for Atmos speakers are the ones which are designed to be positioned at the front and bounce the sound off the ceiling?

I have a similar setup, I was wondering if B&W M1 sat speakers would be a good candidate for height speakers above the mains or on the sides angled down toward the listening area?
 

John Dirk

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Now I see that post might have been misleading, but SVS is NOTHING like the company it started as. In fact, I think it started when Ron Stimpson and Tom Vodhanel crossed paths here on HTF. It was real people, starting up a company, designing subwoofers with exceptional value. I did their first real product photography for a few years in those early days. My first product shoot for them was actually in Ron's living room, and then I set up a mobile studio in his garage for some more product shots. Eventually they were sold to an equity firm, and now it's just not the personal endeavor it originally was. Tom went on to co-found Power Sound Audio, and I think he's still there. I haven't had contact with Ron in years, though.

I like to know there's a person who primarily designed my equipment, and who they are. It was Dan D'Agostino with my old Aragon 4004II amp. It was the late Jim Thiel with my Thiel speakers. It's Andrew Jones with my Elac Uni-Fi speakers, and Lonnie Vaughn with my Emotiva equipment. SVS started as that kind of company. It isn't anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. If I got a new sub, it would probably be a PSA, if for no other reason than it would be designed by the same guy who designed my (and your) SVS PB12-Plus2.

Great information and, you're correct, I did misunderstand your original comment. Sorry about that. I couldn't agree more with your sentiments but that tends to be the way most successful startups eventually go. While I still think SVS is a great overall company, I will definitely be taking a closer look at PSA. Assuming it's in my price range I would also like to have that personal connection going forward.
 
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I have a similar setup, I was wondering if B&W M1 sat speakers would be a good candidate for height speakers above the mains or on the sides angled down toward the listening area?
It really depends on what you want to accomplish with them (Atmos?) and what your current speakers are. My current speakers are B&W DM600 S3s all the way around with a KEF sub, so they might be a fair match for my system, but I don'T know about yours. I always try to go with the same brand and series of speakers when adding more, if possible, but at very least; speakers of similar sound characteristics.
 
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Luke Cool

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I always try to go with the same brand and series of speakers when adding more, if possible, but at very least; speakers of similar sound characteristics.
I'm not sure that this is a great thing. My Klipsch surround speakers are fine, but the matching center speaker is the weakest part of my whole system. Similar sound characteristics in this instance are undesirable. The center speaker's job is unique.

I replaced a Klipsch subwoofer with an SVS PB-2000. I do not, at all, think that I made a mistake. The Klipsch was a good subwoofer, but the SVS made a very positive and improved influence on my system. In the case of a subwoofer, I don't see where the center and surround speakers can have similar sound characteristics. There jobs have like a night and day difference.

And many think that two of the same subwoofer, adjusted the same way, is the best way to go. With this, you just add more of the exact same thing. If you need two to achieve sufficient sound levels in the room, I can see where this would be OK. But just to level one side of the room with the other, some difference can be beneficial somewhat like a left and right channel on the front speakers. For a second sub, I am considering replacing my Velodyne with an SVS PB-4000.

Some times, I believe a difference adds to the fullness of a systems sound. I can however see a great reason for speaker symmetry for like a left and right channel within the same job.
 

David Willow

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Timbre matching is important if you want the sound to stay consistent as it pans from speaker to speaker. If you do not care about this then mix and match to your heart's content.

Subwoofers are a different animal. Get the best one you can afford. It doesn't have to be matched - go with a company that specializes on subs.
 

John Dirk

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Timbre matching is important if you want the sound to stay consistent as it pans from speaker to speaker.

What exactly does this mean? To timbre match, do I simply need to buy the same brand and model or is this a scientific consideration?
 

Luke Cool

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Timbre matching is important if you want the sound to stay consistent as it pans from speaker to speaker. If you do not care about this then mix and match to your heart's content.
My height, back, and side speakers are the same. The center is of the same series (but will be replaced soon). The fronts are extremely different, HPM 1100, and have their own amp.

Subwoofers are a different animal. Get the best one you can afford. It doesn't have to be matched - go with a company that specializes on subs.
Agreed, but I'd go a little farther than that. The front and center channels, on most systems, look drastically different than the height, back, and side speakers, so invariably will differ from them in "tone quality and presents" (Timbre). Most front and great center channel speakers are 3-way.These are the work horses, where most of the sound comes from. Like the sub, quality is more noticeable here. Most height, back, and side speakers are 2-way, and are more so "support".
 
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David Willow

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What exactly does this mean? To timbre match, do I simply need to buy the same brand and model or is this a scientific consideration?

In an ideal situation you would have identical speakers everywhere. Unfortunately that is not possible in most cases so speaker manufacturers make speakers in sets that sound similar but are shaped differently (horizontal centers for example). If you cannot get identical speakers and do not get the matching speakers for the set, then you are in a sorta no mans land... You can experiment and see how other speakers work. Some may be close enough that you won't notice while others it will be obvious (for example, you wouldn't want James Earl Jone's voice to sound different in the l/r speaker than it does in the center). Sometimes a call to the manufacturer can lead you to other speakers that sound similar.
 

Relic1Golf

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It really depends on what you want to accomplish with them (Atmos?) and what your current speakers are. My current speakers are B&W DM600 S3s all the way around with a KEF sub, so they might be a fair match for my system, but I don'T know about yours. I always try to go with the same brand and series of speakers when adding more, if possible, but at very least; speakers of similar sound characteristics.
I have B&W 685/686 speakers with an SVS subwoofer. right now Im using cube speakers for surround and one of the 686 for the center. I know Im putting the cart before the horse so to speaker by looking a height speakers before I get a dedicated center but I want to budget for a well rounded Atmos setup and am between the SVS prime elevation mentioned earlier or B&W M1? once I get a center Ill move the 686 to the rear surround channel.
 

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Luke Cool

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In an ideal situation you would have identical speakers everywhere. Unfortunately that is not possible in most cases.
Sure it is. Buy 9 of the same speakers. But this is not a good idea. The right and left front, and center speakers along with the subwoofer, each has a specialized job. Not just any speaker will do anywhere. And rather than the "tone quality and presents", I use this standard in a different way. I listen to see if the speaker reproduces sound accurately, on the channel I assigned it to. I also like the equality of symmetry from one side to the other. You'd be surprised at how a good theater receive can adjust "tone quality and presents" into even a fair quality sound system. That not to say quality is not important. There is something to be said about a speaker that always sounds perfect, even without equalization.
 
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I have B&W 685/686 speakers with an SVS subwoofer. right now Im using cube speakers for surround and one of the 686 for the center. I know Im putting the cart before the horse so to speaker by looking a height speakers before I get a dedicated center but I want to budget for a well rounded Atmos setup and am between the SVS prime elevation mentioned earlier or B&W M1? once I get a center Ill move the 686 to the rear surround channel.
If it were me personally, I'd go with either the HTM61 S2 or HTM62 S2 for your center to stay within the series and get best matching. For your x.x.2 or x.x.4 Atmos speakers, I'd also choose something from the same brand with the same driver size, if possible. I'd probably go with the M1s before the SVS, just to keep it all B&W, but that's just me. I'm kinda OCD that way. Sub brand doesn't matter as much. Mine's a KEF, but I'm not crazy about it. It's a sealed design which is supposed have better punch and control, but I had a Klipsch ported sub with less power, while I was living in the US years ago, and it was much punchier with better control IMO.
 

JohnRice

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Timbre matching is important if you want the sound to stay consistent as it pans from speaker to speaker. If you do not care about this then mix and match to your heart's content.

Subwoofers are a different animal. Get the best one you can afford. It doesn't have to be matched - go with a company that specializes on subs.
Yeah. Both these points are HT 101. I don't know why they're even being argued. FWIW, I have found that perfect matching tends to be a little less important with the surrounds than it is with the front three. All identical speakers are probably ideal, but that's not always practical. You sometimes need to weigh your priorities. With my main system, two channel music is my #1 priority. It wasn't financially feasible for me to fully match all the speakers to the mains, but with some effort, I found a combination that, along with some parametric EQ, is able to exceed my expectations.
 
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JohnRice

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What exactly does this mean? To timbre match, do I simply need to buy the same brand and model or is this a scientific consideration?
The simplest way is to buy speakers from the same line. Beyond that, with a lot of work or luck, you can find mismatched Speakers that are similar enough to blend. It's easy to eliminate certain ones based on design. For example, if the speakers you want to match have silk dome tweeters, then a speaker with a piezo or horn tweeter are almost certain to be a bad match, because those types of tweeter produce significantly different sound.

A personal example is that I have Thiel mains, and not only has Thiel become a completely different company since Jim Thiel passed away, the current speakers the company with that name now makes have zero similarity to mine. I did have a matching Thiel center speaker, but something went massively wrong with it and it wasn't feasible to replace or repair it. After several other tries, I saw the Elac Uni-Fi UC5, which costs a fraction of what Thiels are, even used, but looking at the design of it I hoped it would blend in well. Fortunately, it turned out to be probably 95% as good a blend with the Thiels as the Thiel that died.
 

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I'm seeing several bits of advice that are, at best confusing to beginners, and even to enthusiasts, really cut against all home theater conventional wisdom.

To summarize what follows: Buy a good set of same-family speakers from a quality manufacturer. Buy a good subwoofer (or two) from a good subwoofer maker; which might be different from the speaker maker. Place them correctly in the room. Take the time to run your AVR's audio-processing software (Audyssey and that ilk). If you're really into, use physical room treatments.

Speakers
  1. Ideally your speakers would all be identical and (nearly) full range, reaching down to at least 80Hz without appreciable roll off, where the subwoofer picks up. You'll see this in some enthusiast's rooms where they have an array of five or more towers for LCR and surrounds. And this includes Atmos speakers: ideally Atmos is full range from all sources.
  2. Matched, full-range speakers is completely impractical for almost everyone, even in high-end dedicated rooms. So you want "timbre matched" speakers for the ensemble. The easiest way to do this is to buy a complete set of speakers (5 or 7 or whatever your surround setup is) from the same family of a speaker manufacturer's lineup. Even with LR towers, "toppled" "WTW" Center, and Bookshelf/Satellite surrounds (and ceiling Atmos), a good maker will be using similar and matching components through the family to have good uniformity in "color". Simply put, voices won't change apparent tone or style during a stereo or surround pan.
  3. There's the view that with high-quality speakers, you can mix and match as they should not color the sound appreciably. I think for the experienced and informed enthusiast, that's a fine approach to pursue. But for most people, it's best to go with the can't-fail recommendation of (2): buy a matched family.
  4. Subwoofer: conventional wisdom is the sub doesn't need to match anything Mix and Match subwoofers with any family of speakers.
  5. If you need more subwoofage than a single sub can give, you can buy a bigger single sub :), or add in second sub. In my media room, I have two small subs (tied together) and a medium sub for an x.x.2 sub configuration. I'd prefer to have a single monster sub, or even two mid-sized subs. But cost was prohibitive so I did the best I could with that approach. But they're all from the same vendor (Triad, in this case). So you can mix and match sub sizes. But, again for simplicity, it's simplest and most foolproof to buy matched subs from the same maker.
Room Correction
  1. First and foremost, put the speakers in the right place and right orientation, as best possible. There are threads dedicated to people exploring the right distances and toe-in of their speakers. Do your best. There are also long conversations about where to put the sub. To first order, place the sub in a convenient corner a foot or so from the walls to get a bass boost. (That's not necessarily accurate or sonically correct, but most people will be happy with it.) If you've got a great sub, but it's just not performing, check that you're not inadvertently sitting in a room null.
  2. Receivers come with increasingly sophisticated audio processing software, Audyssey being the best known. These will attempt to compensate for the highs and lows of your speaker setup along with taming room resonances and partial nulls. But they're not a panacea, not yet. Software will do best when starting with high quality, matched speakers. Start with good speakers setup correctly, then make it better with software.
  3. If you're really into home audio / home theater, you'll want room treatments with absorbers, reflection dampeners, bass traps. Done fully, the room's acoustics are modeled and room correction determined and installed accordingly. An alternate for the hobbyists (or more frugal) is to trial-and-error develop room correction through iterative measurements and analysis with software such as REW and purchased or DIY acoustic treatments. This also gives the best starting point for audio calibration software to do its thing.
  4. Some comments in prior posts seem to be advocating doing room correction via buying unmatched speakers with acoustic flaws that are equal and opposite the room behavior to come out quasi-neutural. Similarly, there seems to be a suggestion to fix a room gain by putting a subwoofer with the correct poor performance to compensate. These are a perverse approach to achieving good audio. Don't do this.
How's that sound? Anything I missed or didn't get quite right? That's the nut of what I've learned from reading forums and playing some at home the past 20-plus years :)
 

JohnRice

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Dave, thanks for the extensive summary.

What I think these issues tend to boil down to is, there are several universal ideals in setting the audio for an HT. Speakers should be voice matched and placed at fairly specific locations in the room, for example. For most people, fulfilling all these ideals tends to be either impractical or even impossible, so sacrifices have to be made. No matter how well those sacrifices work out, sometimes only in our own minds, they are still sacrifices. They don't negate what is the ideal.

Just a note: The "Voice" in "Voice Matching" is not referring to human voices. It's an audio term for the general sound characteristics of a speaker. And the word "Speaker" in that sentence doesn't refer to a person standing at the front of a room talking out loud. It refers to some kind of enclosure that contains some type of drivers that reproduce sound. The word "Drivers" in that previous sentence does not refer to individuals who are operating motorized....
 
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Luke Cool

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What I think these issues tend to boil down to is, there are several universal ideals in setting the audio for an HT. Speakers should be voice matched and placed at fairly specific locations in the room, for example. For most people, fulfilling all these ideals tends to be either impractical or even impossible, so sacrifices have to be made. No matter how well those sacrifices work out, sometimes only in our own minds, they are still sacrifices. They don't negate what is the ideal.
You forgot one thing, the room also needs to be built and designed for this purpose. Few people use their system purely for home theater. But for the best case scenario, we can all probably agree that all channels should be 3 way, exactly the same, realistic sounding, and with multiple subwoofers placed to create uniform lower frequency support. In my lifetime, I have seen only two of these type of systems. They were professionally built, and both people were filthy rich. You will never see towers in a system like this. A few of the members here may have a system that approach this, but most fall short in some area.

Now back to reality. Significant voice type sounds rarely reach the support speakers, so few put large amounts of money into those speakers. The front three are by far the most important, so this is where towers and a premium front center is preferred. These systems are also used for multiple purposes, often by multiple people in a family environment, and are placed in a room that serves multiple functions. The ones that own these types of systems are the people that we mostly see in this forum. This is the public that we serve, they are the ones that keep forums like ours necessary as an information resource. It is to our advantage to keep the ideal system in mind, but never appear to look down our noise with disapproval at these people. A lack of perfection in a world filled with compromises, is reality.
 
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