Adding Atmos speakers? (1 Viewer)

[Luke Cool]

This isn't about protecting my setup, and you did little to address my question and my points. I'm one of those people that does lots of research, thinks deeply, and reacts to logic. You aren't talking to a kid. Am a well educated aircraft electrical technician with 40 years of experience. With my set up, I have great separation where it should be. This was my goal when I set it up and tuned it. I know my way works. It's hard to argue with success. Bottom line; the mid range to higher frequencies are directional, and a good portion of the sound will go where you aim it.

Are you familiar with ceiling speaker technology. For good reason, it is not the same speaker you see in your cabinet. Look at the design of a ceiling speaker as a unit, then of a cabinet speaker unit. In many ways, the average cabinet speaker unit is far superior to the average ceiling speaker unit. Add the lack of aim ability, plus cutting a bunch of holes in your ceiling, and it's easy to see why ceiling speakers are not very popular. Next up, we can talk about the heat problem and how most ceiling speaker installs are done incorrectly (both private and professional). And how they don't last as long, and how fun they are to replace. And how they disperse sound so it is not as directional or as crisp.

To convince me that I'm wrong, explain the science in your logic. I love a good discussion.​

 

[Sam Posten]

You've missed the key point of this technology. Atmos doesn't value separation. It values precision placement of object sound in 3d space.

Setups like yours and bounce versions of Atmos give a subtle but imprecise application of Atmos. Downfiring ceiling speakers allow the laser focused tracking of individual object sounds throughout the entire box of your setup.

As far as the hurdles of installation of speakers you are somewhat right. The hard part is running the wires. I hired a professional to pull mine. Once that was done I did the actual speaker installation myself. I'm all thumbs with stuff like this and yet I was fully capable of doing it.


Atmos prewire by Sam Posten III, on Flickr

As someone new to HTF @Luke Cool I'd like to do two things. First is to welcome you here, it seems like you are an opinionated person with a lot of experience to share. We can always use more folks like that. Secondly, I'd like to stress that HTF values -friendly- discussions. Read our rules please if you haven't yet. They are in every one of my posts and those of our owners and moderators.

You aren't going to 'win' arguments and Karma points by pwning newbs with your superior intelligence. You CAN win here by listening and carefully considering opposing viewpoints and understanding that those viewpoints may have vastly different experience, goals, budget, background and limitations than you do. With those kept in mind providing considered responses from a place of kinship in the hobby is an amazing gift.

If you want examples of what not to do here at HTF, a cursory screening of www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart will be illuminating =)

 

[John Sparks]

My towers are slanted toward the front seats like they should be. My in-ceiling Polks v60s will be mounted inline with the towers, slightly forward of the front seats and firing down, correct?

 

[JohnRice]

"Bottom line; the mid range to higher frequencies are directional, and a good portion of the sound will go where you aim it."

I think this might be where the problem comes from. Speakers don't work like flashlights. The sound they project isn't "focused" but disperses evenly at 90 degrees or more. It varies somewhat from speaker to speaker. Yes, frequencies do get more directional as they get higher, but they mainly get directional to where they originate (the speaker), not to where the speaker is aimed. If you can see the tweeter, the sound you hear will primarily come from the speaker.

In speaker design there's a concept called soundstage or imaging. It's a desire to make the dispersion of the sound, especially the high frequencies, so wide and unimpeded and the phase so coherent that the speakers (when properly arranged) will tend to disappear. It's an illusion of course, but the result can be amazing. Certain companies (particularly Vandersteen, Wilson, the original Thiel Audio, when Jim Thiel was still alive) design their speakers entirely on this concept. I mention it because, in general, speakers are intentionally designed NOT to project a focused column of sound, but to disperse it as wide as possible.

I'll say it again, I have no illusions that I will change your mind. I'm stating this for the benefit of others.

 

[JohnRice]

My towers are slanted toward the front seats like they should be. My in-ceiling Polks v60s will be mounted inline with the towers, slightly forward of the front seats and firing down, correct?

Sounds right to me, but Sam can give personal experience. BTW, have you ever tried not toeing in your mains? Give it a try sometime. Aim them exactly in line with the front wall. It tends to open the soundstage, and with certain speakers the result can be very nice. Sometimes the soundstage just gets unfocused, but it's easy to try.

 

[Sam Posten]

Again, I'm in the 'try it and see what you like' boat rather than being devoted to what experts say. I have mine all toed slightly but if you like yours flat that's cool too. Mains are designed to have a wider presence than direct radiator surrounds tho! And in a typical HT you'd be surprised at how much heavy lifting the center channel does compared to the usually more expensive mains.

I mostly agree with John's assessment of speaker 'focus' but note that Atmos tunes itself to your theater's capability to specifically allow for more obvious directionality. It's really interesting to compare a 5.1.2 ceiling bouncer to a 7.1.4 direct radiator ceiling mount in that respect.

 

[John Sparks]

Sounds right to me, but Sam can give personal experience. BTW, have you ever tried not toeing in your mains? Give it a try sometime. Aim them exactly in line with the front wall. It tends to open the soundstage, and with certain speakers the result can be very nice. Sometimes the soundstage just gets unfocused, but it's easy to try.

No, not with these Definitives. In my past media room my fronts were in-line with the front wall.

I'll give it a try this afternoon and check back.

If I put them that way, then where do my ceiling speakers go?

 

[Sam Posten]

I'd recommend slightly ahead/behind and left/right of the center of mass of your listening positions. I have 6 seats and the rear set are almost overhead of the 2nd bench. It's fine. You can see the recommended layout on the previous page, but you don't have to have it exact to spec for it to work. Again the Atmos processory is going to take the results of your room calibration into account to optimize it to your setup and space. This is why I recommend Denon for this task, the Audessey calibration is simply magic.

 

[JohnRice]

If I put them that way, then where do my ceiling speakers go?

Whether or not you toe in your mains should have no effect on the ceiling speakers. If that's what you're asking and I didn't misunderstand.

 

[John Sparks]

Thanks for both of your replies. I'll see how they sound when I get the Denon.

 

[Luke Cool]

You've missed the key point of this technology. Atmos doesn't value separation. It values precision placement of object sound in 3d space.
Setups like yours and bounce versions of Atmos give a subtle but imprecise application of Atmos. Downfiring ceiling speakers allow the laser focused tracking of individual object sounds throughout the entire box of your setup.
As far as the hurdles of installation of speakers you are somewhat right. The hard part is running the wires. I hired a professional to pull mine. Once that was done I did the actual speaker installation myself. I'm all thumbs with stuff like this and yet I was fully capable of doing it.

This is my set up. It is in the Doby web site. There is one exception, my back speakers are position like the Height speakers in front. This set up provides great three dimensional sound. With the few ceiling speaker systems I've seen, I was not impressed. It may be cheap speakers or a poor install, but I know "a lesser system" when I hear it. I'm sure a system done right would sound great, but I have a cathedral ceiling, so I doubt ceiling speakers are a good choice for me. Besides, to me it's debatable whither a speaker firing from the ceiling straight into the floor is better than sound firing vertically across the heights of the room. But I have learned a fair amount from this thread, Thanks to those that posted constructive comments.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/surround-sound-speaker-setup/9-1-setup.html

As someone new to HTF @Luke Cool I'd like to do two things. First is to welcome you here, it seems like you are an opinionated person with a lot of experience to share. We can always use more folks like that. Secondly, I'd like to stress that HTF values -friendly- discussions. Read our rules please if you haven't yet. They are in every one of my posts and those of our owners and moderators.
You aren't going to 'win' arguments and Karma points by pwning newbs with your superior intelligence. You CAN win here by listening and carefully considering opposing viewpoints and understanding that those viewpoints may have vastly different experience, goals, budget, background and limitations than you do. With those kept in mind providing considered responses from a place of kinship in the hobby is an amazing gift.

Shane Come Back says in post 40 "Again, your opinion and nothing else. Of course anything I say, here, you will disregard because you want to protect your setup at all costs (even to the point of seeming to think you are a better sound engineer than anyone at Dolby Labs), so this it's really a pointless debate except to keep other people from taking your counterintuitive advice, as John pointed out above."
This is not friendly. What i did doesn't even come close to this, yet you singled me out for my reply. And I file "field engineer reports" often, telling the engineers where they screwed up. My family is full of engineers. I second guess and analyze everything, it's my nature.
Thanks for the welcome, but Shane and John have been here long enough to know the rules. Lead by example.
​

 

[Robert Crawford]

For clarification purposes as I'm not singling out anybody, but I'm here to say everyone needs to be respectful to each other in order to have some civil discourse when it comes to this subject matter. So let's cool it with the personal references towards people with a contrary POV and this warning applies to all of us.

 

[Luke Cool]

"Bottom line; the mid range to higher frequencies are directional, and a good portion of the sound will go where you aim it."

I think this might be where the problem comes from. Speakers don't work like flashlights. The sound they project isn't "focused" but disperses evenly at 90 degrees or more. It varies somewhat from speaker to speaker. Yes, frequencies do get more directional as they get higher, but they mainly get directional to where they originate (the speaker), not to where the speaker is aimed. If you can see the tweeter, the sound you hear will primarily come from the speaker.

In speaker design there's a concept called soundstage or imaging. It's a desire to make the dispersion of the sound, especially the high frequencies, so wide and unimpeded and the phase so coherent that the speakers (when properly arranged) will tend to disappear. It's an illusion of course, but the result can be amazing. Certain companies (particularly Vandersteen, Wilson, the original Thiel Audio, when Jim Thiel was still alive) design their speakers entirely on this concept. I mention it because, in general, speakers are intentionally designed NOT to project a focused column of sound, but to disperse it as wide as possible.

I'll say it again, I have no illusions that I will change your mind. I'm stating this for the benefit of others.

For this post, you would have received a like from me if it was not for the last line. For the most part, I agree with you.​

 

[John Sparks]

I just hope my Polk v60s sound good when I finally get them in the ceiling and positioned correctly.

 

[David Willow]

This is my set up. It is in the Doby web site. There is one exception, my back speakers are position like the Height speakers in front. This set up provides great three dimensional sound. With the few ceiling speaker systems I've seen, I was not impressed. It may be cheap speakers or a poor install, but I know "a lesser system" when I hear it. I'm sure a system done right would sound great, but I have a cathedral ceiling, so I doubt ceiling speakers are a good choice for me. Besides, to me it's debatable whither a speaker firing from the ceiling straight into the floor is better than sound firing vertically across the heights of the room. But I have learned a fair amount from this thread, Thanks to those that posted constructive comments.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/surround-sound-speaker-setup/9-1-setup.html
​

That is not ATMOS. The post is about ATMOS setup which is probably why there's so much disagreement with your statements.

FWIW - I briefly considered up-firing speakers to sit on my mains since my room may work out for it (ceiling is flat and low). After thinking about it I am not interested in a compromise. I either do it all the way or not at all.

PS - I can't imagine bouncing anything off cathedral ceilings. That seems like quite the challenge....​

 

[Luke Cool]

In spite of finding out that I did not adhere to engineering spec placement, the back and height speaker placement turn out well. In a movie, when a helicopter or jet flies over, It really sounds like it's flying over me. With the wall to wall separation, It sounds devastatingly real. Other effects are also distinctly up there. I do not use imagine bouncing, I more so depend on the height sound field being at a higher level. I also made my own side speaker stands to circumvent the situation I faced. That worked out well too. My set up is engineered for the room it is in, and it works well.

 

[John Dirk]

Yes, in-ceiling speakers always have been a bad idea for surround sound, until Atmos came along. They are exactly how Atmos is supposed to be implemented. Either that way or Atmos enabled models, with a suitable ceiling.

I have down firing Atmos speakers mounted on the walls as shown. The two forward speakers are wired in parallel for front height and the other is for rear. I think it sounds great but then again, I've never experienced any other Atmos equipped Home Theater. I bought these SVS speakers for the specific purpose of avoiding ceiling speakers because I've always heard they represented a compromise in performance and I also wasn't crazy about ceiling-mounted speakers in a home I'll eventually need to sell. Above all, however, I want the best Home Theater experience I can get. Do I need to install in-ceiling speakers for that? If so then I'm game. I can always remove them and repair the drywall when it's time to sell if needed.

 

[TonyD]

What are those wall speakers?

They look like what goes on top of the front and shoot up for the Atmos effect.

That was my question earlier. Why not take the up shooting speakers and put them on the wall like that or even the ceiling and aim them towards the seating area.

 

[JohnRice]

I bought these SVS speakers for the specific purpose of avoiding ceiling speakers

Is there any reason you can't attach surround speakers like that to the ceiling, instead of the wall? I expect it can be done.

 

[John Dirk]

What are those wall speakers?

They look like what goes on top of the front and shoot up for the Atmos effect.

That was my question earlier. Why not take the up shooting speakers and put them on the wall like that or even the ceiling and aim them towards the seating area.

https://www.svsound.com/pages/prime-elevation