A very interesing conversation on Power. (1 Viewer)

[Brett DiMichele]

Last night I was over at the DIY Audio Site's Forums and I
read an article by Decware's owner about Power Generation.

In the article he was adressing "Late Night Bloom" and what
causes this event. He said that he was at a power company
one time and saw the Power Control Operators vary the frequency
of the power (other than 60Hz.) This peeked my curiosity and
I work for the power company so I asked my friends tonight
who happen to be Power Control Operators if this was true.

They had some interesting information. Basicaly what happens
when you drop the frequency of your own generation you begin
to lean on neighboring power generation facilities and this
is illegal. Back in the 70's a certain power company was
caught doing this and penalized severely.

They said that some fluctuation is unavoidable. Under severe
load when generation does not meet the demand the frequency
will dip. They have alarms in place to warn them of such
happenings and the power never dips below 59.5Hz and they
said this is perfectly acceptable and does not effect a
clock cycle on a consumer timepiece or anything that clocks
off the 60Hz AC Cycle.

Yes they "can" advance or retard a clock by over or under
frequency conditions but they are not allowed to do things
like this and they also said if thier generation was at
57Hz we wouldn't be generating any power at all.

Interesting stuff...

Your thoughts?

 

[Arup]

This looks like genset power to me. One of the reasons people dont run their systems on generators. On my Honda genset the power frequency varies from 49-51 Hz but that is acceptable for a genset as it isnt promising clean power. ( 50Hz is the normal range here in India ). For line power I am expecting little if no variations.

Great piece of info and many thanks for it.

 

[MikeRP]

All:

This is starting to happen all over because of deregulation and the high price of spot market wholesale power.

We've seen it at my parents home where their TV won't stay on during hot summer night because the local co-op is retarding the voltage.

This allows them to reduce their internal power consumed and reduce high spot market purchases. My parents water heater was also off for as much as 8 hours during these days.

The frequency is similiar issue but on a much larger scale because of the interconnected grid. It hasn't been since the 70s that this has happened. Several major companies were leaning on the interconnected grid in 1999 or 98 and were reprimanded harshly for it.

What it amounts to is this........Competition is dead. The wholesale market for electricity is non-existant and you can't have a competitive retail market without a robust wholesale market.

This happened because everyone forgot electicity is not a commodity like grain. It can't be stored on the scale we need. You turn your Home Theater on - a power plant has to be ready to deal with that load immediately.

Environmental regulations have stopped new construction and the fact that its hard to get 3 billion from Wall Street to build a new base load coal fired plant when there's not a guaranteed return on that investment because of competition.

Equals NO PLANNING!

So your left with the previous administrations legacy of supporting gas fired peakers whose cost right now today of $85 per Mwh just in fuel costs. Depending on where you live you probably pay $75 to $110 per Mwh which is what the average household uses in one month. That's an all in cost providing for capital, energy, operations, and maintenance of the power plants, transmission and distribution lines.

So, you see the more we have to use these gas peakers the higher our costs are driven.

FERC and the FedEPA work at cross purposes every day.

So, we have NO load growth planning. So, we are starting to see brownouts and this will only increase as the economy comes back.

Electricity prices were as low as they were going to get in the mid 90s and we are set nationally for huge jumps in energy costs. Love our legislators - monkeying around with the most economical, reliable electric system in the world.

You can tell I don't like it, right?

Mike

 

[Yogi]

Good post Brett and great response Mike. I never knew things like these existed. Thanks again guys.

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Mike,

You are right on.. Spot on in fact about the generation and
wholesale of electricity.

The company I work for has seen it's stock fall from 50+
dollars a share to it's current 8 dollars a share and
holding. Granted our administration made some bad choices
but Deregulation in general has caused major disruption in
the way power is aquired and sold. Add to that the tree
huggers who don't want any new generation facilities and
you have major supply problems.

I just wish the FERC would give a ruling in my companies
favor already.. Story short, the State of California caused
my company to near bankrupcy (backing out of a 15 year
contract to supply them with power at $60.00 MW at a time
when they were paying $200-300 MW)

We had to borrow billions to solve our short term liquidity
problems and of course a baloon payment is expected and we
don't know how we will pay it.. Most likely MORE good workers
will loose thier jobs and it all goes back to California
breeching contract.

I HATED California before this.. I dispise the state and it's
legislature now. If I had a choice between California or
Iraq I think I would move to Iraq.. At least it's not choc
full of brain dead liberals and tree huggers.


[/Politics]

 

[Mark Hedges]

Liberals are generally not to blame when it comes to pushing for deregulation.

I couldn't stand it when Californains were crying because their electricity costs jumped 50% -from 6 cents per KWH to 9 cents. That is still a lot cheaper than the 12 cents per KWH I pay in new york. The west has had it very easy on electricity costs because of massive government subsidies in the form of hydroelectric dams.

Mark

 

[Chu Gai]

Brett...I do think that your hating the Lakers doesn't need THAT much justification!
And that's terrible that Decware ought to bring up something like that. I mean, they don't need to point to that as to why their SET's suck

Now why someone wouldn't report something like this, had they actually observed it is beyond me. Got a link to where you read this?

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Chu,

Let me see if I can find the link!



It was an "interesting" read.. But like my friends at work
said.. No way.. If they lean on the grid it's fraud and
they (the person in control that shift) would be fired!

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Ask and ye shalt recieve!

Here is the thead....

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...te+night+bloom

And here is the article from Steve Deckert

http://www.decware.com/paper03.htm

 

[Shane Martin]

Let's ignore the Political aspect so that this thread doesn't get closed up ok?

But I see this as maybe some information that we can look into for these power discussion we have and the benefits of the equipment that is out there. Would this be a reach here? I know there are alot of skeptics about this kind of stuff but with so many people hearing/seeing the benefits I can't imagine that the power everywhere is consistent and these purchases are awful. I do have some power issues in my own home but I'm probably going to rewire the HT room when I remodel it(put on hold lately). I may end up trying something after the fact to cure my curiosity bug but I'm thinking ahead a bit.

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Shane,

Yeah I agree I will not interject any more political BS
and I think we should stay clear of it.

I don't think it's a reach to discuss means to ensure that
you are making the best use of the power coming into your
home. I think Chu has given some very good advice to others
before on what to do around the house to make sure that the
power you have comming in is as clean as it can be even
before you add any sort of filtration or regeneration to
the mix.

One thing I do agree with is this.. There IS something that
happens at night with music.. I have heard it from my own
system numerous times. And it's not even a "slight" difference.

The difference I hear is more substantial than the difference
any piece of equipment has made. Is it psychological/Psychoacoustical?

Is it really that the local grid is more clean at night?

Is it a combination of both? Something definatly happens
and it's amazing.. And I heard this, even before I thought
I was an "Audiophile" who da thunk it??

 

[Chu Gai]

I had to clean my sneakers after that Deckert article. It's been six years since the article. Certainly enough time to have done a little research into his theory. Well he must've gotten his training and deep insight from that learned Zen Master. Mr. M.T. Ness.

 

[RichardHOS]

Jesus. That article is why I refuse to label myself as an audiophile. I love music, and high quality music reproduction, but BS like that just ruins it for me and I don't want to be associated with it in any way.

 

[Chu Gai]

Late at night is when the mind control rays may be weakened somewhat. You'll find that wearing a Mind Control Beanie during all hours to be an effective way to enjoy your music 24/7. Like all audiophile sites, the link above also includes testimonials and discusses alternatives to Aluminum. You may wish to experiment with both store brand, Reynolds, Heavy Duty Reynolds and the latest non-stick Aluminum Foils. Enhance your enjoyment of your system inexpensively and improve both soundstage, tightness of bass, and some say attract desireable members of the opposite gender with dubious morals by covering your entire body with aluminum. Try it...thousands can't be wrong, can they?

 

[JeremyFr]

Ok the imature comments are a bit much I personally have never experienced this phenomena so dont start bashing me but having some basic knowledge of electricity and some of the theorys makes sense, I'll be it that any flux in Frequency can be devastating to electrical devices so I dont believe that whole thing, but the fact that there is much less electricity being used at night hence less polution on the power lines etc does make sense. There are all types of phenomena that occur naturally for whatever reasons and mocking someone over whats so far been an interesting discussion is pretty immature.

 

[MikeRP]

Brett:

Bet I can guess who you work for!

Sorry, the situation is truly ridiculous.

As for politics..........there is enough blame on this dereg thing on both sides of the isle.

I didn't mean to start a political argument. Just trying to relay some facts. As for a System Operator being fired for leaning on the grid.............I'm sure that WOULD happen now because of the outcome of 1998 and 1999.

With that I'll shutup!

Mike

 

[JeremyFr]

One other thing I must say after looking at that thread is I enjoy audio but god help me if I ever reach a stage like those guys where I just cant live with what I have and wonder if theres some other little way to make it better.

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Mike,

Ohh I guarentee you know who I work for. You are very well
versed in what's going on in the generation and supply
market. I can tell that much just from your original post.

And I agree that there is blame on both sides of the fence.
Our CEO made some brash purchases and some choices. It's a
shame that legal binding contracts can so easily be backed
out of with no fear of repremand though. Hopefuly in the
end the FERC and Supreme Court will do the right thing.

I just hope I am around to see it through. Out of 4 people
on my team I am the last one left. We employed over 2000
people and I think we are currently around 1000 or so.. Due
to Early Retirement Options, which is better than just
getting rid of people.. At least they got thier pensions.

I really feel for the guys and gals who had 90% of thier
401's as stock options though.. from 50 to 8.... Bad stuff..


As far as the audiophile stuff goes.. I hear that late
night bloom. We can argue that it doesn't exist but I heard
it way before I even knew what it was. It's not like I was
"listening" for it to happen. It just happens and I have no
explanation why. And I am not looking to buy some magical
product that makes it happen all the time. Like I said in
my earlier post it could be Psycoacousical for all I know.
The mind is the most interesting thing! But it DOES happen!

 

[JeremyFr]

I had no intentions of meaning you were like them or looking for some magical thing to make your system sound better I was just simply stating that it seems that you reach a point that you dont enjoy it anymore since you're always looking for something to make it sound better.

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Jeremy,

Ohh I agree that can and does happen with some. Some of the
suposed "audiophiles" turn what is a passion (the love of
music) into something clinical which it was never meant to
be.

I sit back and I tap my feet.. I stand up and I dance.. I
am giddy when I listen to music on my system. It sounds
absolutely fantastic to these ears. I am saying though that
there is certainly something *different* that happens at
night. The music is more soothing, more melodious and
spacious.. Why? I don't know, and honestly I probably don't
want to know.. I just sit back and enjoy the show.

It's all music to my ears!