A thread for testing $2000-$2500ish subwoofers

JohnRice

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Jeff, dual V1811s should be pretty @&$* impressive. I want to upgrade my sub (an SVS PB-12 Plus 2 that TV also designed) but I think I'd want to go sealed. The S3010 would probably be the winner. the volume of my room is about 3,800 CF, and I think it would be plenty to pressurize things.

Side question, are you actually powering La Scalas with Crown amps?
 

PPIAMP

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I had my choice down to a single PSA S3811 or two V1811. Tom V. thought I needed the vented option with my room especially <35 Hz were the V models have 6 to 8 db more output. I took his advice. A bit more money but I want to do this once and done. However, I think I would be happy with either one. Also, more flexibility with two subs and you can stack them vertically or horizontally or space them out. Yes crown amps :P I have had the Krell's and CJ and all the other big bucks amplifiers. This humble crown gets within 90% of the best i have heard. They use Crowns new DriveCore technology. They have to be the best kept secret in home theater. Here is professional reviewer Andrew Robinson with a very positive review about them:
http://www.hometheaterequipment.com...re-Series-Amplifier-The-OFFICIAL-Thread/page5
 
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Bob Bielski

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They are powered: 960W RMS 2100W peak:
V1811
Design Vented
Driver 18" High Excursion
Powered Yes
Amp 960W RMS (2100W PEAK)
Enclosure CNC machined MDF
Frequency Response 16Hz-200Hz +/-3dB
In-Room Extension 11Hz-14Hz
Size (DxWxH) 22" x 20" x 24" with grille
Weight 108 lbs

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/V1811
Thanks Jeff couldn't find it.
I would think one sub would be loud enough. 2 will have less distortion, same output both subs sharing half work less excursion and flexibility of moving around the room to smooth out the response of the room. Good luck on calibrating. Can be done but tricky with using 2. Reading the owners manual, it suggests playing bassy music and adjusting the delay using a sound pressure level meter, I think if you use this method you should use music with long sustained bass notes like organ. Also you can run log sweeps in an A-B loop on your disc player. Good luck and enjoy.
Don't forget to post your results and how you got there.
 

PPIAMP

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I use Audyssey XT32 as a subwoofer calibration device. It handles two subwoofers independently. The main task will be finding placement options. I really only have two choices. 1. Place each speaker next to the L/R mains. 2. Stack them vertically on the hard left wall. I do not have anywhere behind me and the right wall has a table already. Any thoughts would be welcomed. Tom says they will be shipping early to mid next week.
 

Bob Bielski

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I didn't have luck with Audyssey, they have different powered algorithms, and the second AVR I had was very inexpensive. I did the setup manually.
Started with SPL meter using pink noise full bandwith to set volume. Then ran log sweeps from 100hz down to 10hz in an AB loop on the disc player. I adjusted the Q factor untill the lowest frequencies were the heaviest but not distorted. The crossover I adjusted from my seat using the variable adjustments inside the AVR. I did it in 10 db increments starting at 100hz down to 40hz. Turned out 80hz was the best match.
For a signal to do the crossover point for sub I used Transformers Dark of The Moon chapter 19 to the end. This movie has extreme low end effects.
I have a low priced sub an HSU VTF-3 MK4. It came with a test disc and contains a recording of Saint Saeans, pardon my spelling, organ music that was recorded in Boston. Dr. Shu says it's the finest recording he can find that contains a 16hz organ pedal note.
I always still had a limit on how loud I could play heavy music in my ROOM.
The room gain and RT60 decay rate interfered with an overload of pressure and if any louder the bass would get boomy. I have extremely flat response speakers, and am drving them with 500watts so plenty of head room. They are rated for max 375watts. My amp is super high current and has a great damping factor. The sub can blow out the windows but power isn't always the issue. The room could only take so much energy and it overloaded. I need to treat the room to get more volume without getting boomy. My pre-pro that replaced my AVR has a very strong algorithm, and after manually setting everything up I ran the room correction program and it made the system better than I could tune it in.
Even with terrible acoustics it squeezed more heaviness out at higher volume than I could get. Very humbling. I will send you a PDF file containing a lot of information on sub woofers. It helps to have as much information as you can get.
 

Bob Bielski

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would love to send you the PDF of a 5 part article out of Wide Screen Review on subs. could attach to an email but not here.
 

Edwin-S

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Anybody have any experience with KEF's force cancelling subs such as the R400B? KEF is going to be releasing KF92 which basically uses the same arrangement as the 400: Two 9" drivers in a back to back force cancelling arrangement. The total power is 1000W RMS (2 x 500W Class D amps).

Their claim is a frequency response of from 11Hz - 200Hz (+-3dB) with a max output of 110dB. All in an enclosure size of ~14"H x 13"W x 14"D. It seems kind of incredible to me to supposedly get that sort of performance out of such a small package, but I have to admit that my knowledge of subwoofer characteristics is not as strong as it probably should be.

I was thinking that two of these subs would be ideal for a multi-sub setup in a small to medium size area due to the relatively small footprint. The biggest downside is the price: 2500 bucks Canadian per sub.

The other sub I've been looking at is an 18.OE, suggested by Dave Upton, from Funk Audio, a Canadian manufacturer. That sub would cost 3520 Canadian including taxes and shipping. The sub looks like a high quality build: mostly handbuilt, including the driver and I would be supporting a Canadian manufacturer for once. The downside is that the size and cost of it means a single sub setup and I keep reading that multi-sub setups allow for less critical room arrangements and better room performance. The guys at Audioholic seem to especially lean toward multiple sub setups over one single sub.
 

theJman

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Anybody have any experience with KEF's force cancelling subs such as the R400B? KEF is going to be releasing KF92 which basically uses the same arrangement as the 400: Two 9" drivers in a back to back force cancelling arrangement. The total power is 1000W RMS (2 x 500W Class D amps).

Their claim is a frequency response of from 11Hz - 200Hz (+-3dB) with a max output of 110dB. All in an enclosure size of ~14"H x 13"W x 14"D. It seems kind of incredible to me to supposedly get that sort of performance out of such a small package, but I have to admit that my knowledge of subwoofer characteristics is not as strong as it probably should be.
"incredible" would be one way of describing such a feat. Bovine defecation is what I would choose however. ;)

The cone area for a pair of 9" drivers is roughly 14", so comparisons to lower end 15" subs would be most relevant. I'd love to see a 15" sealed subwoofer in a small cabinet come anywhere near those measurements, let alone a pair of 9" drivers. Physics has some immutable laws I'm afraid, among them low frequencies require large drivers and/or large cabinets. The KEF R400 has neither.


The other sub I've been looking at is an 18.OE, suggested by Dave Upton, from Funk Audio, a Canadian manufacturer. That sub would cost 3520 Canadian including taxes and shipping. The sub looks like a high quality build: mostly handbuilt, including the driver and I would be supporting a Canadian manufacturer for once. The downside is that the size and cost of it means a single sub setup and I keep reading that multi-sub setups allow for less critical room arrangements and better room performance. The guys at Audioholic seem to especially lean toward multiple sub setups over one single sub.
Funk Audio is a boutique manufacturer that makes some of the most highly regarded subwoofers you can buy, at any price. Whatever you get from them will be first-rate so one of their 18's should be strongly considered.

Dual subs can (key word) have significant benefits, but to achieve them you must have freedom of placement and be willing to put in the time for proper tuning and to determine the correct locations. You can't just drop them where aesthetics say they work best and expect good results. That will happen on a rare occasion, but more often then not where they look best will not be where they perform the best.
 

Edwin-S

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So far, the two things that are stopping me from purchasing a sub from Funk Audio is the price and whether an 18" sub is overkill in a living room that measures 16' long by 12' wide. One side is open to a dining room that is about 12' by 11' but, still, I have to wonder if an 18" sub is overdoing it.

SVS makes a 16" that may work better, but the exchange rate and shipping just make it uneconomical to buy a sub from an American supplier.
 

theJman

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At a GTG one time I was in a similar sized room with 8 18's and the owner thought it was about right so it depends upon what you're looking to achieve. My room is 13x17 and I have an 18" sub and for me it's not overkill but others may feel differently.
 

Edwin-S

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Right now, I'm using an old Mirage BPSS 210 sub. Two 10" drivers in a bi-polar arrangement. I thought it was starting to go South. I was watching "The Expanse" and there was a lot of "popping" occurring during sequences with low frequencies. I had to turn down the volume to eliminate the issue. I checked my connections. Those were good. I've been using a wireless transmitter, so I eliminated that as a source of the issue by temporarily using a cable connection. It is a good thing I'm not married because any wife would be flipping out over audio cables running across the living room floor. :laugh:

I guess the surface area of two 10" drivers would be close to that of a single 15". I guess I'm a little undecided on whether the BPSS has reached its end of life usefulness and whether I really want to spend 3500 on a sub. The Funk Audio subs do look good and their 18" is only about 300 bucks more than buying an SVS Ultra 16 sealed sub from a Canadian supplier that I was able to dig up. I like the fact that the Funk sub box is built from actual plywood rather than MDF, but it is a drag to pick a sub by specs rather than actually being able to listen to it. I wonder how a carbon fiber and paper composite cone differs from a fiberglass resin cone in terms of sound?

The Funk sub I'm looking at is claiming 0.5% THD @ 1600W while their previous 18" was 0.01% at 2200W. Of course their previous model is twice as expensive as the new one they have coming out. The other claim is that the performance is similar to their FW18.0 but there are no real details to back that up. Although, they are saying soon.

I may go ahead with it. My BPSS is 24 years old. It may be time to get something new.

On another note, I have to wonder how someone was able to put 8 18" subs into a room that small. :)
 

theJman

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The Funk sub I'm looking at is claiming 0.5% THD @ 1600W while their previous 18" was 0.01% at 2200W. Of course their previous model is twice as expensive as the new one they have coming out.
Numbers only really matter if the results are audible. If they're inaudible than don't get too hung up on specs because in the end the only thing that matters is what you can actually hear, not what a microphone can pick up. For a subwoofer 0.5% THD is not something you could hear so it won't present an issue.


The other claim is that the performance is similar to their FW18.0 but there are no real details to back that up.
If the claim is attributable to Nathan than consider it accurate. He's not known to be a BS artist just to make a sale, he's actually a straight shooter.


I may go ahead with it. My BPSS is 24 years old. It may be time to get something new.
That is probably twice the normal life expectancy for a powered subwoofer so you were very fortunate with that one. Given the advancements in the ensuing years you will likely be quite please with something from the 21st century.


On another note, I have to wonder how someone was able to put 8 18" subs into a room that small. :)
There were 4 cabinets that contained 2 drivers each. They were lined up in a horizontal row across the front wall, underneath the projection screen. Sitting on the top was a massive center and tower speakers, one in each front corner.

It was too much for me so while he was putting the system through its paces I left the room. As I was walking down the hall I noticed the door to the laundry room pulsating in and out, like the effect from a cheap sci-fi flick. It made me wonder what that was doing to the foundation of the house. I can envision nails backing out due to the vibrations.
 

Edwin-S

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There were 4 cabinets that contained 2 drivers each. They were lined up in a horizontal row across the front wall, underneath the projection screen. Sitting on the top was a massive center and tower speakers, one in each front corner.

It was too much for me so while he was putting the system through its paces I left the room. As I was walking down the hall I noticed the door to the laundry room pulsating in and out, like the effect from a cheap sci-fi flick. It made me wonder what that was doing to the foundation of the house. I can envision nails backing out due to the vibrations.
That is nuts. I like my bass, but I don't want to feel like I'm in an underground bunker during a B52 bombing. ;)

Nathan made a follow up call to me to say that intro pricing was coming to an end on Friday for their new offering. Asked if I was still interested in buying.

I like that he made the effort to do a follow up call. That is rare in any business. Decided to pull the trigger. Now just waiting for the bad boy to show up and see what it can do. Sometime near the end of November or early December by his estimate.
 
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theJman

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Nathan made a follow up call to me to say that intro pricing was coming to an end on Friday for their new offering. Asked if I was still interested in buying.

I like that he made the effort to do a follow up call. That is rare in any business. Decided to pull the trigger. Now just waiting for the bad boy to show up and see what it can do. Sometime near the end of November or early December by his estimate.
Congrats! You are buying a sub from a boutique manufacturer renowned for quality so I suspect you will be quite pleased it. Be sure to come back and post your thoughts.
 

JohnRice

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Dual subs can (key word) have significant benefits, but to achieve them you must have freedom of placement and be willing to put in the time for proper tuning and to determine the correct locations. You can't just drop them where aesthetics say they work best and expect good results.
I just wanted to emphasize that comment. First, there really is no such thing as "stereo" subwoofers with movies. A fact that is constantly undermined by electronics manufacturers touting X.2.X receivers and processors. Also, placement of a sub is complicated with one sub, and it's probably 10x as complicated with two. If you don't put a lot of effort into it, and have even more flexibility, the negatives will probably outweigh the positives. Most of all, most people I see insist on buying two inferior subs rather than one superior model at the same total cost, even though the one superior one typically blows away two cheaper ones in every conceivable way. In most home situations, a single sub can be made to integrate into a room quite well.
 

Edwin-S

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Congrats! You are buying a sub from a boutique manufacturer renowned for quality so I suspect you will be quite pleased it. Be sure to come back and post your thoughts.
Congrats, Edwin! I can't wait to hear your report!
I'll pop back in here and post my impressions of it when it arrives.

I just wanted to emphasize that comment. First, there really is no such thing as "stereo" subwoofers with movies. A fact that is constantly undermined by electronics manufacturers touting X.2.X receivers and processors. Also, placement of a sub is complicated with one sub, and it's probably 10x as complicated with two. If you don't put a lot of effort into it, and have even more flexibility, the negatives will probably outweigh the positives. Most of all, most people I see insist on buying two inferior subs rather than one superior model at the same total cost, even though the one superior one typically blows away two cheaper ones in every conceivable way. In most home situations, a single sub can be made to integrate into a room quite well.
I was contemplating trying two KEF92 force cancelling subs that are soon to be released. The KEF92 is basically a replacement for the KEF 400 subwoofer. However, theJman's observation about needing a large driver and/or cabinet for low frequencies made me change my mind as the dimensions of the KEF are 14"x13"x14" with two 9" drivers back to back. Their claim of a frequency range from 11Hz to 200Hz did seem a bit too good to be true, given the size.

My biggest issue with this new one is that I may not be able to put it in the most optimum position. I'm stuck putting the sub at the back of my living room and away from any corners due to furniture arrangements that cannot be easily changed. The entire front stage is taken up by the credenza that my TV sits on plus speakers and the stereo rack that contains all of my gear. My intention was always to move all of the stuff minus the TV to a dedicated room downstairs and use front projection; however, so far, those plans have been on hold for long time now.

Like I said, it is a good thing I'm not married because having a pile of speakers and stereo gear strewn around the living room is not an arrangement that a lot of women would be happy with.
 

Mike Frezon

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Is this going to be one of those subs that gets delivered strapped to a wooden pallet and you're going to need a group of guys from the local military base to haul it into your house?

I've never heard of Funk Audio but I've seen some really cool pix of some of the larger SVS subs getting delivered!
 

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