A question on 70mm 6 track sound... (1 Viewer)

[Tyler T]

Is 70mm 6 track sound the same as a 5.1 mix???

Plus, IMDb lists these films under the format:

1492: Conquest of Paradise

2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) 8.3/10 (32566 votes)

2010 (1984) 6.4/10 (3915 votes)

...aka 2010: The Year We Make Contact (1984)

Absolute Beginners (1986) 5.1/10 (310 votes)

Abyss, The (1989) 7.3/10 (12122 votes)

Adventures in Babysitting (1987) 6.3/10 (2861 votes)

...aka Night on the Town, A (1987) (UK: TV title)

Adventures of Baron Munchausen, The (1988) 6.6/10 (4143 votes)

...aka Abenteuer des Baron von Münchhausen, Die (1988) (West Germany)

Air America (1990) 5.2/10 (1572 votes)

Airport (1970) 6.3/10 (1250 votes)

Alien (1979) 8.2/10 (28270 votes)

Alien Nation (1988) 6.1/10 (1037 votes)

Aliens (1986) 8.2/10 (31448 votes)

Always (1989) 6.2/10 (2599 votes)

Amadeus (1984) 8.2/10 (18218 votes)

...aka Peter Shaffer's Amadeus (1984) (USA: complete title)

American Flyers (1985) 6.4/10 (451 votes)

Angel Heart (1987) 6.9/10 (3904 votes)

Apocalypse Now (1979) 8.4/10 (27060 votes)

...aka Apocalypse Now Redux (2001) (International: English title: longer version)

Arachnophobia (1990) 6.1/10 (4132 votes)

Around the World in Eighty Days (1956) 6.8/10 (1119 votes)

Au nom de tous les miens (1983) 9.0/10 (24 votes)

...aka For Those I Loved (1990) (USA)

Back to the Future (1985) 7.8/10 (30822 votes)

Back to the Future Part II (1989) 6.7/10 (11389 votes)

Back to the Future Part III (1990) 6.4/10 (9806 votes)

Backdraft (1991) 6.5/10 (6435 votes)

Batman (1989) 7.2/10 (16472 votes)

Beaches (1988) 6.0/10 (2141 votes)

...aka Forever Friends (1988)

Beauty and the Beast (1991) 7.8/10 (10922 votes)

Belle histoire, La (1992) 6.8/10 (130 votes)

...aka Beautiful Story, The (1992)

Ben-Hur (1959) 8.1/10 (9632 votes)

Big Trouble in Little China (1986) 6.5/10 (4862 votes)

...aka John Carpenter's Big Trouble in Little China (1986) (USA: complete title)

Black Cauldron, The (1985) 6.1/10 (898 votes)

...aka Taran and the Magic Cauldron (1985)

Black Rain (1989) 6.2/10 (2523 votes)

Blade Runner (1982) 8.3/10 (38346 votes)

Bonfire of the Vanities, The (1990) 4.7/10 (1761 votes)

Born on the Fourth of July (1989) 6.9/10 (5268 votes)

Brainstorm (1983) 6.3/10 (1030 votes)

Bridge on the River Kwai, The (1957) 8.4/10 (10246 votes)

Bring on the Night (1985) 6.5/10 (93 votes)

...aka Sting: Bring on the Night (1985) (Europe: English title: video title)

Camelot (1967) 6.0/10 (586 votes)

Carmen (1984) 7.4/10 (108 votes)

...aka Bizet's Carmen (1984)

Casualties of War (1989) 6.6/10 (1585 votes)

Chitty Chitty Bang Bang (1968) 6.2/10 (1285 votes)

Chorus Line, A (1985) 5.4/10 (910 votes)

Clan of the Cave Bear, The (1986) 4.9/10 (474 votes)

Cliffhanger (1993) 6.0/10 (5744 votes)

...aka Cliffhanger - l'ultima sfida (1993) (Italy)

Cobra (1986) 4.0/10 (2301 votes)

Cocoon (1985) 6.6/10 (4332 votes)

Cocoon: The Return (1988) 4.8/10 (1214 votes)

Color of Money, The (1986) 6.7/10 (4220 votes)

Cotton Club, The (1984) 6.1/10 (1190 votes)

Cruel Horizon (1989)

Cry Freedom (1987) 7.0/10 (737 votes)

Days of Thunder (1990) 5.3/10 (4243 votes)

Dead Poets Society (1989) 7.7/10 (23907 votes)

Dick Tracy (1990) 5.6/10 (4634 votes)

Die Hard (1988) 7.9/10 (27207 votes)

Die Hard 2 (1990) 6.7/10 (9986 votes)

...aka Die Hard 2: Die Harder (1990) (promotional title)

Doors, The (1991) 6.4/10 (4937 votes)

Dune (1984) 6.2/10 (8930 votes)

E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial (1982) 7.7/10 (19091 votes)

...aka E.T. (1982) (USA: short title)

Edward Scissorhands (1990) 7.4/10 (9422 votes)

El Cid (1961) 7.1/10 (570 votes)

Emerald Forest, The (1985) 6.4/10 (697 votes)

Empire of the Sun (1987) 7.3/10 (4788 votes)

Entity, The (1981) 5.7/10 (404 votes)

Everglades (2002)

Explorers (1985) 5.9/10 (819 votes)

Fantasia (1940) 7.9/10 (7370 votes)

Far and Away (1992) 6.2/10 (3987 votes)

Fiddler on the Roof (1971) 7.4/10 (3028 votes)

Flash Gordon (1980) 5.6/10 (2893 votes)

Flashdance (1983) 5.4/10 (2266 votes)

Flatliners (1990) 6.1/10 (4820 votes)

Flipper (1996) 4.7/10 (322 votes)

For the Boys (1991) 5.6/10 (431 votes)

Fort Saganne (1984) 6.2/10 (61 votes)

Ghostbusters (1984) 7.3/10 (14217 votes)

Glory (1989) 8.1/10 (10605 votes)

Godfather: Part III, The (1990) 7.1/10 (6564 votes)

...aka Mario Puzo's The Godfather: Part III (1990) (USA: complete title)

Gone with the Wind (1939) 8.1/10 (14032 votes)

Good Morning, Vietnam (1987) 7.0/10 (7113 votes)

Goonies, The (1985) 6.8/10 (8222 votes)

Gorillas in the Mist (1988) 6.7/10 (1725 votes)

Grand bleu, Le (1988) 7.2/10 (4329 votes)

...aka Big Blue, The (1988/I) (USA)

Greatest Story Ever Told, The (1965) 5.8/10 (379 votes)

Gremlins (1984) 6.7/10 (7109 votes)

Gremlins 2: The New Batch (1990) 5.7/10 (3446 votes)

Greystoke: The Legend of Tarzan, Lord of the Apes (1984) 5.9/10 (1879 votes)

Guns of Navarone, The (1961) 7.5/10 (1972 votes)

Half a Sixpence (1967) 4.8/10 (39 votes)

Hamlet (1996) 7.7/10 (6414 votes)

...aka William Shakespeare's Hamlet (1996)

Havana (1990) 5.3/10 (450 votes)

Hoffa (1992) 6.1/10 (1115 votes)

Hook (1991) 5.6/10 (8184 votes)

Howard the Duck (1986) 3.8/10 (3733 votes)

...aka Howard: A New Breed of Hero (1986)

Howards End (1992) 7.3/10 (3115 votes)

Ice Station Zebra (1968) 6.2/10 (544 votes)

In Country (1989) 5.8/10 (263 votes)

In the Line of Fire (1993) 7.3/10 (7007 votes)

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989) 7.9/10 (27747 votes)

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (1984) 7.0/10 (14490 votes)

Innerspace (1987) 6.3/10 (3846 votes)

It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World (1963) 7.0/10 (3189 votes)

...aka It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World (1963) (USA: promotional title)

Itinéraire d'un enfant gâté (1988) 6.5/10 (123 votes)

...aka Löwe (1988) (West Germany)

Julius Caesar (1953) 7.4/10 (418 votes)

...aka William Shakespeare's Julius Caesar (1953)

King of Kings (1961) 6.9/10 (265 votes)

Ladyhawke (1985) 6.8/10 (4088 votes)

Last Action Hero (1993) 5.3/10 (7017 votes)

Last Boy Scout, The (1991) 6.3/10 (4644 votes)

Last Emperor, The (1987) 7.7/10 (5011 votes)

...aka Dernier empereur, Le (1987) (France)

...aka Ultimo imperatore, L' (1987) (Italy)

Last of the Mohicans, The (1992) 7.3/10 (6943 votes)

Last Starfighter, The (1984) 6.1/10 (2715 votes)

Last Temptation of Christ, The (1988) 7.3/10 (3591 votes)

Lawrence of Arabia (1962) 8.6/10 (13551 votes)

Legend (1985) 5.9/10 (3353 votes)

Let the Good Times Roll (1973) 7.4/10 (24 votes)

Lethal Weapon (1987) 7.4/10 (9243 votes)

Lethal Weapon 2 (1989) 6.9/10 (6845 votes)

Lethal Weapon 3 (1992) 6.3/10 (6128 votes)

Lifeforce (1985) 5.5/10 (928 votes)

Little Buddha (1993) 5.5/10 (1027 votes)

...aka Little Buddha (1993) (France)

Little Mermaid, The (1989) 7.3/10 (6482 votes)

Little Shop of Horrors (1986) 6.3/10 (4659 votes)

Logan's Run (1976) 6.4/10 (2652 votes)

Longest Day, The (1962) 7.5/10 (2928 votes)

Lost Boys, The (1987) 6.7/10 (5349 votes)

Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome (1985) 5.8/10 (3809 votes)

...aka Mad Max 3 (1985)

Man of La Mancha (1972) 5.3/10 (222 votes)

...aka Uomo della Mancha, L' (1973) (Italy)

Manhunter (1986) 7.2/10 (2628 votes)

...aka Red Dragon: The Pursuit of Hannibal Lecter (1986)

Memphis Belle (1990) 6.7/10 (1716 votes)

Miracle of Todd-AO, The (1955)

Mission, The (1986) 7.2/10 (3323 votes)

Money Pit, The (1986) 5.4/10 (3125 votes)

Moonraker (1979) 5.8/10 (4260 votes)

...aka Moonraker (1979) (France)

Mountains of the Moon (1990) 7.0/10 (337 votes)

My Fair Lady (1964) 7.8/10 (6435 votes)

Name der Rose, Der (1986) 7.5/10 (5709 votes)

...aka Name of the Rose, The (1986) (USA)

...aka Nom de la rose, Le (1986) (France)

...aka Nome della rosa, Il (1986) (Italy)

Never Say Never Again (1983) 6.1/10 (3508 votes)

...aka James Bond 007 - Sag niemals nie (1984) (West Germany)

Nutcracker: The Motion Picture (1986) 7.3/10 (21 votes)

Octopussy (1983) 6.2/10 (3741 votes)

Oklahoma! (1955) 7.2/10 (854 votes)

Oliver! (1968) 7.3/10 (1739 votes)

Orfeu Negro (1959) 7.7/10 (564 votes)

...aka Black Orpheus (1959) (USA)

...aka Orfeo negro (1959) (Italy)

...aka Orfeu do Carnaval (1959)

...aka Orphée noir (1959) (France)

Othello (1965) 7.7/10 (73 votes)

Ours, L' (1988) 7.2/10 (636 votes)

...aka Bear, The (1989) (USA)

Out of Africa (1985) 6.7/10 (3379 votes)

Over the Top (1987) 3.8/10 (1343 votes)

Pink Floyd The Wall (1982) 7.2/10 (4999 votes)

...aka Wall, The (1982/II)

Pirates (1986) 5.2/10 (326 votes)

Place to Stand, A (1967) 7.7/10 (6 votes)

Playtime (1967) 7.8/10 (323 votes)

...aka Tempo di divertimento (1967) (Italy)

Point Break (1991) 6.4/10 (5378 votes)

Poseidon Adventure, The (1972) 6.7/10 (2657 votes)

Predator (1987) 7.1/10 (9936 votes)

Predator 2 (1990) 5.4/10 (3940 votes)

Presidio, The (1988) 5.6/10 (1551 votes)

...aka Presidio: The Scene of the Crime, The (1988) (UK)

Princess and the Pea, The (2001)

Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981) 8.6/10 (42933 votes)

...aka Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981) (USA: video title)

Rambo: First Blood Part II (1985) 4.9/10 (3998 votes)

Ran (1985) 8.5/10 (5079 votes)

...aka Chaos (1985)

...aka Ran (1985) (USA)

Razor's Edge, The (1984) 6.0/10 (461 votes)

Remains of the Day, The (1993) 7.8/10 (5828 votes)

Return to Oz (1985) 6.2/10 (817 votes)

...aka Adventures of the Devil in the Sky, The (1985) (USA)

Revolution (1985) 4.1/10 (385 votes)

Right Stuff, The (1983) 8.0/10 (6559 votes)

Robe, The (1953) 6.7/10 (414 votes)

Rocketeer, The (1991) 5.8/10 (3079 votes)

Rocky IV (1985) 4.8/10 (4522 votes)

Rookie, The (1990) 5.1/10 (1029 votes)

Running Man, The (1987) 6.2/10 (5384 votes)

Sheltering Sky, The (1990) 6.4/10 (685 votes)

...aka Tè nel deserto, Il (1990) (Italy)

Shining Through (1992) 5.6/10 (824 votes)

Shoot to Kill (1988) 6.3/10 (736 votes)

...aka Deadly Pursuit (1988)

Signale - Ein Weltraumabenteuer (1970) 3.8/10 (8 votes)

...aka Signals: A Space Adventure (1970)

...aka Signals: An Adventure in Space (1970)

...aka Sygnaly MMXX (1970) (Poland)

Silverado (1985) 7.0/10 (3110 votes)

Sound of Music, The (1965) 7.6/10 (10277 votes)

...aka Sing-A-Long Sound of Music (1990) (USA: reissue title)

South Pacific (1958) 6.5/10 (641 votes)

Spaceballs (1987) 6.5/10 (9434 votes)

Spartacus (1960) 8.0/10 (7267 votes)

Spies Like Us (1985) 5.6/10 (3323 votes)

Stakeout (1987) 6.5/10 (2179 votes)

Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (1986) 7.0/10 (6221 votes)

...aka Voyage Home: Star Trek IV, The (1986)

Star Trek V: The Final Frontier (1989) 4.6/10 (4870 votes)

Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (1991) 6.7/10 (5460 votes)

Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan (1982) 7.4/10 (8563 votes)

...aka Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982) (new title)

Star Wars (1977) 8.8/10 (69117 votes)

...aka Star Wars: Episode IV: A New Hope (1977) (USA: new title)

Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980) 8.6/10 (51643 votes)

...aka Empire Strikes Back, The (1980) (USA: short title)

...aka Star Wars V: The Empire Strikes Back (1997) (USA: video box title)

Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983) 8.0/10 (39176 votes)

...aka Return of the Jedi (1983) (USA: short title)

Starman (1984) 6.7/10 (2976 votes)

...aka John Carpenter's Starman (1984) (USA: complete title)

Staying Alive (1983) 3.7/10 (793 votes)

Superman (1978) 7.0/10 (8113 votes)

...aka Superman: The Movie (1978)

Tango & Cash (1989) 5.3/10 (3433 votes)

Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991) 8.0/10 (34610 votes)

...aka T2 (1991) (USA: promotional abbreviation)

...aka T2 - Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991)

Tess (1979) 7.0/10 (611 votes)

Three Men and a Baby (1987) 5.7/10 (4354 votes)

Top Gun (1986) 6.4/10 (16444 votes)

Tora! Tora! Tora! (1970) 7.3/10 (1301 votes)

Total Recall (1990) 7.1/10 (12358 votes)

Tough Guys (1986) 5.7/10 (454 votes)

Towering Inferno, The (1974) 6.3/10 (2545 votes)

True Lies (1994) 7.0/10 (15534 votes)

Tucker: The Man and His Dream (1988) 6.8/10 (1515 votes)

Two Jakes, The (1990) 5.8/10 (757 votes)

Untouchables, The (1987) 7.8/10 (13351 votes)

Valmont (1989) 6.7/10 (980 votes)

WarGames (1983) 6.8/10 (6388 votes)

West Side Story (1961) 7.7/10 (6563 votes)

Where Eagles Dare (1969) 7.4/10 (2345 votes)

White Nights (1985) 5.6/10 (607 votes)

Who Framed Roger Rabbit (1988) 7.3/10 (10104 votes)

Who's That Girl? (1987) 4.0/10 (892 votes)

Wild Bunch, The (1969) 8.1/10 (5112 votes)

Willow (1988) 6.6/10 (3280 votes)

Witches of Eastwick, The (1987) 6.3/10 (4812 votes)

Wolfen (1981) 6.2/10 (511 votes)

Year of the Dragon (1985) 6.4/10 (683 votes)

Young Sherlock Holmes (1985) 6.3/10 (1419 votes)

...aka Pyramid of Fear (1985)

Are these films original prints used?

 

[Brett Cameron]

Is 70mm 6 track sound the same as a 5.1 mix???

Yes, sometimes it is. But most 70mm 6 track mixes had mono surrounds meaning both rear channels had the same exact sound effects coming out of them. This is why the surrounds on the 5.1 tracks of the Die Hard and Predator dvds are not discrete. Basically most 6 track mixes were really 4.1 thats why the Big Trouble I.L.C and Point Break dvds have 4.1 tracks. Some 70mm 6 track mixes had discrete surrounds such as Apocalypse Now and Indy Jones 3. Those mixes are true 5.1. 70mm 6 track led to Dolby Digital, DTS, and SDDS.

 

[Adam Barratt]

Not usually. The 5.1 system we know today didn't appear until 1979 when Apocalypse Now was released with a modified 70mm Dolby Stereo soundtrack incorporating split-surrounds.
Before then six-track 70mm usually meant five screen channels, one rear channel and no bass channel. Other variations included three screen channels with one rear channel and two bass channels (Dolby 'Baby Boom' six-track).
See this table for a 70mm channel configuration table.
Adam

 

[Jeffrey Gray]

Actually, Superman was the first film to use split-surrounds.

 

[Adam Barratt]

True, although the format was still experimental at that stage. Apocalypse Now was the first film to use the system in broad release (even if it was only 15 screens).

A similar argument could be made for Dolby Digital's release. The first official Dolby Digital film was Batman Returns, but Star Trek 6 was experimentally shown in Dolby Digital at a handful of test venues the year before, so could be seen as the first Dolby Digital film. Most observers (including myself) and Dolby Labs use the broad release film as their 'official' first, though.

Adam

 

[Marty Christion]

The Dolby incarnations of 70mm sound are found here:
http://hjem.get2net.dk/in70mm/magazi...lby_format.htm

At about the time of "A Star is Born" (1976), Dolby Laboratories became involved with 70mm sound by applying their noise reduction system to the magnetic tracks. With 70mm screens becoming smaller, Dolby also offered a re-channeled version, with three screen channels and the surround. This arrangement also saved money by making it easier and more economical to use the same 4-track sound mixes intended for the 35mm optical stereophonic sound format prints. While the sound mixing for "Star Wars" (1977) was being undertaken, the Dolby engineers came up with an idea to make better use of the spare "spread" channels by using them to record extra bass information (below 200 Hz) to give a low-frequency "punch" at suitable moments throughout the film. The idea was used again for "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" (1977) and became known as the Dolby "Baby Boom". (Presumably "Daddy Boom" was Sensurround).
With the advent of the "blow-up" prints it was to make use of the four-track final sound mixes. To make the 70mm six-track version, the three screen channels had to be "spread-out" to make five by combining the center channel 50/50 with each of the outer channels producing the extra inner-left and inner right information.
Unfortunately, this blending process was found to spoil the stereo separation on smaller 70mm screens, the majority of which now averaged only 40 feet wide. lt was discovered that if the two new created channels were reduced in level to a point where they could hardly be heard, the overall stereo effect sounded much better. "A Star is Born" (1976) was released this way and as the 70mm print was also an early example of the "1.85:1" type, the screen masking problem, became immediately obvious, with only the center channel being heard at the correct level.
By the time "Apocalypse Now" (1979) was released, the upper-frequency range (above 500 Hz) on the two "spread" channels was used to provide stereo surround effects. The bass for both the rear channels came from the normal full effects track which was still recorded for compatibility reasons. This combination of "Baby Boom" and "Split Surround" has been used together or separately for many 70mm films since.
An exception in the mid-1970s was "Logan´s Run" (1976) which still used the original discrete six-track system. In the 1980s there were signs of a swing back to the earlier Todd-AO sound format. Some of the 70mm prints of "Heavens Gate", "Annie" and "Tron" were available with the full discrete system but now with all the six tracks Dolby encoded.

I don't think ST VI could be considered the first "Dolby Digital" film, since it was truly a pilot or Beta run (as was Newsies, I believe). It is more a matter of trivia, and Batman Returns was truly the first widespread, advertised Dolby SRD release.

 

[Robert Harris]

5.1 digital used for DVDs is merely a holding format.

Anything can be placed within those channel designations, occasionally incorrectly.

70mm six track magnetic could have been virtually any mix of any number of channels with differing functionalities -- from 5 or 6 channel mono or three channel stereo with an effects track which would have been spread in printing to include channels 2 and 4, to full-blown 5 screen channels (or 2 with baby boom) and split surrounds.

Throughout the '60s the use of stereo and their representative channels could change as the filmmaker wished. As recordkeeping was sometimes less than perfect one does come up with 6 track magnetic mono for films which would have been thought produced otherwise.

And then of course, there was 7 channel for Cinerama.

RAH

 

[Jack Briggs]

Mr Harris speaks!

And we should all therefore listen. Thanks.

 

[Scott Strang]

All hale Mr. Harris. He who has one of the coolest jobs of all times.

 

[Ed St. Clair]

2001:ASO had 8 channel sound!

And Fantasia, the first mulit-channeled soundtrack? Also had more than six, right?

What are the 7-channel Cinerama titles, please!

And a great list of 70mm films. Was that the same one from Widescreen Reviews 2000 DVD & LD SE?

 

[RolandL]

What are the 7-channel Cinerama titles, please!

Go to my Cinerama web site - Link Removed and see the titles under THREE STRIP CINERAMA 1952 - 1962.

 

[Peter Kline]

Here's the 3 Projector Cinerama setup. 5 Channels across the screen, 1 on left, 1 on right and 1 in rear (which was obtained from the side channels. You'll notice beneath the screen a little tiny guy sitting there. He had a cue score and panned the side and rear channels. The soundtrack was on a separate reel. Everything had to be synced, not that easy before computers).

 

[Mark Lensenmaye]

The Cinerama 7-channel sound system was 5 screen channels and 2 surround channels run from a separate dubber. It was a very impressive system. Sychronization was done by selsyn motors...each projector was threaded manually, then the system was locked in, so any movement by one projector was exactly duplicated on the other. Same system was used to sync early 2-strip 3-D movies. There was a control engineer in the early engagements that sat in the auditorium and watched for sync problems and other things that might occur.

There is some dispute about a possible 8-th channel in Cinerama for a rear speaker. In THIS IS CINERAMA there is a section where a choir comes in from the rear. In some installations, one of the operators manually switched one of the side channels to the rear. I'm guessing it was done by the control engineer, but I do not know for sure.

When John Harvey was showing Cinerama at the Neon in Dayton, he did this manual switching.

There may be examples of this in some of the other 3-strip films. Roland L. might have some more info on this, as might the WIDESCREEN MUSEUM site by Marty Hart. Both are outstanding sites with lots of very well researched information.

Mark L.

 

[Peter Kline]

There was only 7 discrete channels in original Cinerama. The 8th SPEAKER was used in theatrical presentation in the early days as I indicated above. All music by the "Cinerama Symphony Orchestra" for the 5 travelogues was recorded to 5 channels. During filming all sound was recorded live. Generally no post-dubbing was done (except for the music).

 

[paul o'donnell]

That picture is a thing of beauty

 

[Anthony Hom]

I saw Star Wars in 1978 in LA at a theater using 70mm print and six track stereo. It was the first time I ever noticed a multi-track sound source and it really stood out, the mix came out all over the place. it sounded so cool at the time. This was in one of those big single screen theaters, not a multiplex.

 

[Peter Kline]

Chinese Theatre in Hollywood?