A Possible Solution To "Low" LFE on 47Ai/45A (1 Viewer)

[Kevin C Brown]

Excellent discovery! Let us know what else you find. If this is true, like you said, if I for example use Avia to calibrate the analog outputs, but I'm only using those outputs for DVD-A and SACD, I just cal the sub 10 dB lower.

I actually also have that Chesky DVD-A test disc (the "Ultimate" disc), I will try this out tomorrow.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Well! Espen is exactly right. Here's what I found:
If I adjust the analog outs on the 47ai with Avia (DD signals converted to analog in the player), and then compare to the Ultimate Chesky DVD-A setup disc, I get sub levels about 10 dB too low.
Plus. The sub test tone on the 47ai is a waste. Even after I adjusted the levels correctly on the 47ai to get matched levels with the Chesky disc, I still didn't even get a reading using the 47ai's sub tone.
I did have to drop all the mains levels to get the sub level to work out right. For example, sub at (max) 6 dB, I had all the L,C,R,RS,LS all set in between -3.5 to -1.5 dB. Otherwise, I couldn't get enough gain out of the sub.
Neat - freaking - o!
I initially just used Avia through the analog outputs on the 47ai, and thought I was hunky dory. Not. So I guess the bottom line is, if someone *does* only have Avia (and presumably VE or the S&V disc), you need to "goose" the sub about 10 dB to get it right for DVD-A and SACD.
I actually haven't thought long enough about this to decide whether it's a problem with the 47ai (and 45a), *or* the fact that DVD-A/SACD is *different* than DD/DTS. (I.e., a Pioneer hardware/software problem, or a "standards" problem between DD/DTS and DVD-A/SACD.)
HTF rocks again... This is really a kind of fundamental thing, you know?
Since I have now broken the seal on that Chesky disc, will have to finally listen to the tracks on it too!

 

[Lewis Besze]

Guys, this is why I asked my question in my first post in this thread.
It's obvious that not many people will use the built in decoders,it's also well known that all testones that meant for DVD-V has sub tones that "calculates" the boost,hence will give 10db lower read on DVD-A/SACD sub outputs,which doesn't need such a boost in the first place.I thought you guys already knew this,but I guess not,and seems that this player is fine,once one understand the calibration process,and what to use to achive this.
Maybe I shouldn't "write" this player off, after all

 

[Leo]

Well it sounds like I'll need to invest in an ICBM (and another set of 6 cables) since my receiver (Yamaha 995 doesn't do BM), the 45a needs help doing BM. For now should I set up my speakers as small (PSB 4T towers, 8C Image Center, Alpha A/V's rear) or large for the 2 front towers? Should I also just stick with 2 channel and run the towers at full range. Also my sub is a Patrick Sun special - SonoSub Box so this sucker will go nice and low. Any thoughts/feedback are welcome.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

and seems that this player is fine,once one understand the calibration process,and what to use to achive this.

Yes, no problem as long as you only use the analog outs for DD/DTS *or* DVD-A/SACD, and calibrate the LFE for the right one.

 

[Brian L]

I initially just used Avia through the analog outputs on the 47ai, and thought I was hunky dory. Not. So I guess the bottom line is, if someone *does* only have Avia (and presumably VE or the S&V disc), you need to "goose" the sub about 10 dB to get it right for DVD-A and SACD.

Kevin,

This seems backwards from what I found, although I have been messing with this issue for so long (early October!), I am not really sure what end is up at the moment!

Calibrating the 45a internal deocoder with Avia, Ultimate, or VE requires a BOOST to the sub level (compared to other DD or DTS decoders) to get equal values across all channels (assuming levels in the player are fixed).

This is because those test tones are 10dB LOWER then the other channels, assuming that the decoder will provide the required boost.

Then, when I pop in the Telarc disc, its bass is WAY TOO HIGH, audibly apparent with music (at least on their Weather Report DVD-A), and very measurable with their DVD-A test track.

If I re-cal to the DVD-A test tones, then switch to their DTS test track (they lack a DD track on this disc), then the DTS bass is too low.

And for comparison, I ran the DTS track through the player with the system levels set to my DD Avia settings (including bess boost); bass was pretty much on the money, leading to the conclusion that the Telarc DTS tracks are similar to DD tracks; ie. with LFE about 10dB down.

And the ICBM does not really fix the problem, it just gives you a more convenient way to deal with it (via the sub level control), in addition to being a VERY fleixble corossover.

It appears that the missing boost to the LFE still exists in the 45A even when using an ICBM (and setting the player to all large + sub on). It appears that the boost takes place (or in the case of the 45A, SHOULD take place), in the decoder BEFORE BM).

I absolutely do agree that if you use the internal deocders for everything, you MUST reset the LFE when going from DVD-A/SACD to DD/DTS.

I am really anxious to get my Chesky disc to see if the results match the Telarc tones.

And if I still have this upisde down, I expect someone will tell me:b

BGL

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Brian: Let us know. I just tried to quickly replicate what I saw yesterday:
a) Avia via coax digital
b) Avia via 5.1 analog
c) Chesky DVD-A via 5.1 analog
d) Chesky DVD-V via 5.1 analog
e) Checky DVD-V via coax digital
I have it that levels are correct with (a) and (c). But today, I didn't really see the 10 dB difference (c vs d, or c vs e, or b vs c). (Maybe 'cause I'm trying to watch football at the same time...) The test tones *are* different between Avia and Chesky unfortunately.
The other interesting thing is, on the Chesky Ultimate disc, you actually have to go to the 47ai's Initial Settings menu and change the default (Options, DVD playback) from DVD-A to DVD-V before the player will "see" the DVD-V Dolby Digital part of the disc. (It always says "DVD-Audio" or "DVD-Video" on the top right corner of the TV at the menu level just so you know.)
I always thought of it this way: DD has that internal 10 dB boost, but the source is recorded as if that boost didn't exist. So the source is the source, doesn't matter what it is, but for DVD-A, you have to manually add that 10 dB because DD adds it internally.
But now I'm a little confused...
Have you ordered the Chesky disc yet?
Next time I try this, I think I'll need to write the results down. Gets kind of complicated keeping track after a while!

 

[Brian L]

You know, I almost posted this afternoon to say NEVER MIND, I have something wrong, pay no attention to the man from Albuquerque!

First off, I had a few extenuating circumstances to deal with.

Last week, my sub amp went Tango Uniform (its an HSU 250, and I have to say that HSU provides great service, but perhaps not the best sub amps in the world), and I did not get the replacement until Friday. Then, I had lent a friend Avia, so I really did not get to try to replicate all my steps until today.

And when I did, I got totally lost.

I started with the internal tones on my receiver (Pro Logic only) and got 75 dB across the board. Then went to the 45A via the ICBM and the 6CH in, and with Avia, got 85 dB across the board (I did have to twiddle with the new sub amp level so that I was able to dial in both sources). I have individual sub gain for both the 6CH in and the internal decoder, and the PL sub level needed to be down about 6-8 dB below the 6CH level...more or less what I have been seeing all along.

Then, the dark haze set upon me!

I put in the Telarc disc, and cued up their DVD-A test tones, expecting the bass to be way too loud. No, the damn LFE tracks was almost right on the money. WTF????

I then tried the DTS tones on the same disc, and the LFE for DTS was DOWN 6 dB or so. WTF again?!?!

Surely you have heard the line about the man with two watches never really knowing what time it is? That was me, except I have three; Avia, the Ultimate DVD, and the Telarc tones. And I was getting all sorts of discrepancies.

At the point were I threw in the towel, the Avia DD levels and the Telarc DVD-A tones were in agreement, with the Telarc DTS LFE tones down from the others.

The Chesky disc has shipped, but I am not sure when it will arrive. By then, I should be mentally ready to revisit all this.

I can also conform that the 45A is the same WRT selecting the DVD-V layer vs. the DVD-A layer. You have to do it in the players menu.

I will be off the air for about a week starting Friday (business trip to France). I think I would do well to leave this stuff alone for a while so I can clear my head!

Maybe before I go, I could even do something crazy like, WATCH A FREAKIN' MOVIE OR LISTEN TO A FREAKING DVD-A! These test tones are making me nuts.

BL

 

[Leo]

Yeah I was wondering how many folks have been fiddling with rather then trying to enjoy the 45a. I know we are all sticklers about getting things set up, but then there is a time where we just need to sit back and enjoy the music.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Brian- When I tested today, I still got the additional 10 dB needed for DVD-A, but when I compared to the DVD-V (DD) tracks, they were either actually right on the money, or slightly lower, which is more in the direction of what you thought!
(But the 'niners came back, and that was partially occupying my attention too.)
Leo- Well, me personally, I gots to know it's set up correctly before I can truly enjoy it.

I just thought of the easiest way of getting across how that 10 dB ends up in my system. Post 'em!
Sp..LF...C....RF...RS...LS...sub
a)..-1..+1...-1....+1...+0...-3..=> Avia via coax digital
c)..-1..-1..-1.5..-1.5...-3...+6..=> Chesky DVD-A via 5.1 analog
(Hopefully this lines up for most people.) So in this case, you can easily see the extra 10 dB for SACD/DVD-A...
It is interesting the differences in the mains between them...

 

[Lewis Besze]

Kevin,
So with the DVD-A tones you have -10db reading?
Is this the Chesky disc?
What the "manual"[disc] says reagarding how to use it?
Just curious.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Nothing specifically in the manual for SACD/DVD-A vs DVD-V. The only thing I can find is that it says, "The test tones were recorded at -20 dBFS."

 

[Lewis Besze]

Bummer!
I was hoping that they would address the fact that DD-DTS decoders will boos the signal by 10db,which is not gonna happen with the DVD-A/SACD decoders.
This questiones the usefulness of this disc, as calibration tool.
BTW is this disc authored as a DVD-A disc?

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Lewis- It does say DVD-Audio (with the logo) right on the front, and on the main DVD-A menu... (And also has the DVD-video logo on the front, and says DVD-video on the main DVD-V menu.)

My cal numbers do indicate the 10 dB difference between the two. I don't understand your question?