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A PEEK AT HEAVEN AND EARTH

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by haineshisway, Dec 29, 2014.

  1. Michel_Hafner

    Michel_Hafner Screenwriter

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    Anti aliasing after the fact is not really feasible without taking a lot of real detail out as as well. Anti aliasing has to happen during scanning. Later the damage is baked in for good.
    As far as visibility of this is concerned it's highly correlated to the high frequency content of the images. Where there is none it's hard or impossible to see. When there is a lot the image is riddled with false detail. Non horizontal/vertical hard edges are usually the first place where one notices the problem.
     
  2. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    Yup! Also, for others, let's remember that Warner has done this with many BD catalog releases. As an example, I suspect the upcoming BD releases for Sharky's Machine and Hooper will be derived from older masters too.
     
  3. Giovanni DN

    Giovanni DN Stunt Coordinator

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    They've done a service by making it available in any form.


    This transfer is not worth half of the price they ask for. No thx, TT! Isn't the OP the same guy who vigorously defended that terrible Titus release? I smell a studio shill....
     
  4. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    Stop with the insults. We don't allow that here!
     
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  5. Robin9

    Robin9 Producer

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    You exclaim: no thanks TT! Does this mean you have not seen the disc? If not, how are you able to judge the transfer?
     
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  6. Persianimmortal

    Persianimmortal Screenwriter

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    I'm not recommending it, nor saying it's true anti-aliasing. Real anti-aliasing involves taking greater samples along edges to add more information which is not possible with encoded video. What I'm talking about is post-process image enhancement that HDTVs typically apply to reduce image quirks, particularly in certain modes and also when the image is rescaled. And yes, these "enhancements" usually reduce/remove original information in order to achieve a supposedly more pleasing image.

    All I'm saying is that with a temporal artifact such as aliasing (i.e. it is most noticeable while in motion), the settings and modes - and any inherent motion processing or motion blurring on LCD/LEDs - on peoples' TVs will affect how visible it is. The fact that RAH has pointed out that the master was originally 1080i, and the stair-stepping effect is visible in screencaps makes it indisputable that there is aliasing, the issue is just how noticeable it is to various people.

    On the topic of whether this movie is worth the price, that's a personal choice. But let's not all make out as though TT is in the habit of releasing poor transfers - of all the boutique providers TT is one of the strongest when it comes to high quality releases.
     
  7. ROclockCK

    ROclockCK Screenwriter

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    I'm not sure what my XBR9 might be doing with the fine picture detail Koroush, but when I pause the same frame (or close) shown in that blown up screen cap the moire and edge aliasing which are clearly evident in that pic barely show up on my display, and not even in every adjacent frame. And since I'm not detecting any loss of detail elsewhere, I don't understand how there could be such divergence between a raw screen cap and an otherwise unremarkable 4 year old consumer display.

    BTW, although this master started life as 1080i according to RAH, it reads as 1080p on this disc. I'm not familiar with the techniques of such conversions - but is it possible that some additional work was done along the way here to minimize interlacing artefacts? This disc sure didn't look as bad as either Enter The Dragon or The Fugitive...at least not in motion.
    Hear. Hear. Out of TT's 130-odd Blu-rays to date the ratio of recent 4k scanned remasters to legacy 2k HD sources is still impressive. Coincidentally, I just finished watching The Fortune, a fun but mid-tier 70s romp, and yep, once again we have this gorgeous remaster by Sony for a flim that many fans had never even heard of before TT's announcement. To their credit, Sony doesn't discriminate based on perceived artistic or commercial value - whether it's Nicholas and Alexandra, or The Buddy Holly Story, or Alamo Bay, or even Mindwarp, they all get treated with the same pro care end-to-end. It's an amazing commitment to quality, really.

    Anyone truly familiar with TT's output these days knows that Mr. Crisp and Mr. Belston have been quietly raising the bar on catalogue quality month after month...after month...after year. So that criticism is a complete non-starter.
     
  8. Michel_Hafner

    Michel_Hafner Screenwriter

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    I wonder why there is that aliasing present. If the master was 1080i60 with a proper pulldown a proper 1080p24 version should be easy to derive from it. Maybe the problem is that the master is 1080i60 with only 1440 horizontal pixels, lacking 25% of all horizontal pixels of full HD and a crude algorithm was used to create the missing pixels.
     
  9. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    And gleaning that info from Warner...Good luck.I will add this, as it has worked on other "ancient master Warner" discs.Switch the player to 1080i, and...if you can, try component video. (And yes, I know...this particular disc...audio will suffer)Seriously. It helps some of the discs. (Caveat. I also still have displays capable of native 1080i. I might have time over this 4 day weekend to try a warner disc in 1080i on either an LG or Panny plasma. I still watch old masters on an ALiS or via my projector, which does native 1080i...or at least it fakes it really well)
     
  10. haineshisway

    haineshisway Producer

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    It has been confirmed to me that the master used for this transfer is 1080p not i. Which means if it began life as an i, which it may have, at some point it was converted by Warners into p.

    And I just want to say I'm not seeing "perceived" detail in this transfer, I'm seeing real and excellent detail. Even the reviewer at the other site says it and gives it a 4. All I can do is watch something and either I'm pleased or I'm not. Usually what I'm not pleased with is botched color, soft transfers, too much dirt and detritus, and lousy contrast where the contrast shouldn't be lousy. With Heaven and Earth I see an image that seems fine to my eyes and it was a pleasurable viewing experience. I don't sit and analyze pixels and high frequency if they're not evident to my eyes. I am not sitting miles away from my TV and I have glasses that provide me 20/20 vision - I actually have 20/20 vision in my right eye, but my left eye is not, hence the glasses.

    I didn't "rave" about Titus, BTW. I said the same thing I said in this thread: Older transfer that looked fine - and it does look fine. Just as does the decade-old transfers of a whole slew of movies coming out of MGM. They are all mostly praised right here. Age does not mean world-class disaster. Age is but a number.
     
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  11. Persianimmortal

    Persianimmortal Screenwriter

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    I really don't know why there's a disparity, except to say that perhaps if you use the Zoom function on your TV you'll see the effect more clearly. But since you don't want to view this movie zoomed during normal viewing, if you can't see it then just be happy :)

    As I said, I imagine a lot of the fuss and outrage is being generated by people who just want to find any excuse to attack TT. Maybe if TT just listened to all those Harvard MBAs over at Blu-ray.com, dropped their prices (say to around $5-10) and stopped artificially limiting to 3,000 copies, everyone would be satisfied and TT would sell millions of copies of each release. So really, TT only have themselves to blame because they're not listening to the sound business advice that the highly knowledgeable forum posters are so generously providing for free...

    I think Michael may be on to something in noting that perhaps the 1080i master was originally 1440 not 1920 pixels wide, because looking at the screencap detail (I know, I know, it's a screencap) it looks like that aliasing is due to a horizontal stretch with interpolated data when converted to 1080p. Ironically it may have been better if it was left as interlace.
     
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  12. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    I got a question/request for Redman and crew...Since you weren't able to secure an isolated score for this. That tells me the music resides elsewhere. There is this new format called BD-A. Probably heard of it.Spitballing here, but how about trying to snag the music rights for a one-off BD-A?Possibly, for first takers, signed by Kitaro himself(maybe, if we could be so lucky).I'd pay $75-$100 for a signed copy...if such a thing would make fruition.Credit card on standby...
     
  13. Richard Gallagher

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    After high school I worked in a liquor store for six months before I went into the Navy. It was a very nice store in a good location. We did steady business but it was never packed with customers, except right before Thanksgiving and Christmas.

    A few miles away there was a liquor sold which under-priced us on nearly every bottle of wine and liquor that we sold. That place was always jammed with customers. One day I asked my bosses why we didn't compete more aggressively with that other store on price.

    Their answer? Their store was just as profitable as the other store. If they matched the other store's prices, they would have to work twice as hard to make the same amount of money. So what would be the point?

    I have no idea what TT's profit margin is, but for argument's sake let's that it's $10 per Blu-ray sold. If they cut the price in half, they would have to sell at least twice as many discs to make the same profit.

    From day one there have been naysayers about TT's business model, but here we are nearly four years later and TT is still going strong and putting out more titles than ever before.
     
  14. bruceames

    bruceames Supporting Actor

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    Good point Richard.
     
  15. Richard Gallagher

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    It reportedly cost $33 million to make (which is easy to believe, as the production values are outstanding) and the domestic gross was less than $6 million. It probably still hasn't made a dime for WB.

    I believe that Heaven & Earth was ahead of its time, notwithstanding that it was released 18 years after the fall of South Vietnam. I'm not sure that audiences were ready to embrace a film which so graphically shows the effect of war upon innocent civilians. For that matter, there might not be a large audience for this film if it were released today.
     
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  16. ROclockCK

    ROclockCK Screenwriter

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    I doubt it would even get made.
     
  17. Cinescott

    Cinescott Supporting Actor

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    I have always thought that films told from the perspective of the "enemy" are very interesting. All Quiet on the Western Front, Letters From Iwo Jima, and Heaven and Earth are all great movies IMO. It's too bad that they may not always appeal to mass audiences.

    I am glad, however, that some directors take the risk or use their clout to get them made occasionally.
     
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