A little experiment: Using a $500 receiver as a dedicated HT processor (1 Viewer)

[Arthur S]

Serge

Many AV receivers still have crossovers fixed at 100Hz. With some recent models fixed as high as 120Hz. I would guess that the thinking is that significant numbers of people are not HT enthusiasts and that spousal acceptance factor forces the men to buy speakers that are as physically small as possible. Many women want all the equipment to fit into a wall unit. Not too many women are into the equipment look. You should see the look on the face of women who see my living room for the first time. A 17 foot wall of equipment and TV in the middle. Try explaining what a separate amp is to the average woman.

So I think that AV receivers were designed with the high crossover to ensure that there will be enough bass for those with small speakers.

Receiver makers started paying more attention to the enthusiast market in the past 3 years, largely due to this forum. With 30,000 members (and many others they influence), this is not a market they want to ignore.

The change has been slow and gradual. Some kept the crossover fixed but lowered it to 100 Hz. Some have provided a variable X over but with 100, 120, 150 as the choices, or even 100, 150, 200!

But things are changing for the better. Variable Xovers are becoming more common, and the Xover points are coming down.


Serge

I would like to ask you for a favor. Can you listen to the Kenwood with music and comment on sound quality? I am looking at the 6070 as a pre/pro for both music and movies. I'm not asking that you put it in your music system, just in your HT system in 2 channel with familiar music.

Thanks

Artie

 

[Larry B]

Serge:

even room lenses

Could you please describe this in more detail, including links (if possible).

Thanks.

Larry

 

[Serge Breton]

Larry,
you've never heard of the Argent Room Lens?
http://www.roomlens.com/RoomLens.html
The DIY versions are also an option, just check out the DIY section over at audioasylum.

 

[Larry B]

Serge:

you've never heard of the Argent Room Lens?

I may have heard of it but I am certainly not familiar with it.

Larry-learning-something-new-every-day-B

 

[Serge Breton]

Larry,
just teasing, not everyone has heard of these.
Well,
looks like i'm taking a step backwards for 2 channel sound quality. I have added a Sony TA-P9000es preamp for cd playback and i'm very disappointed so far. This preamp (thanks again Andy, like new as you said) is not at all transparent from what i'm finding, my system is now very harsh and i even have some signs of sibilance. Even with my acoustic treatment in place the sound is still terrible, there is no depth, no imaging and i found myself listening to a pair of speakers again rather than having the live you are there feeling. No i'm not using the 2ch passthrough but instead am using one of the 5.1 active inputs since i need volume control. Hard to believe this is a Stereophile Class A component.... Maybe this unit isen't fully broken in yet so i'll give it the benefit of the doubt but so far i hate it! One week of this and if there is no drastic improvment, it's outta here :frowning:

 

[RichardMA]

Even with my acoustic treatment in place the sound is still terrible, there is no depth, no imaging and i found myself listening to a pair of speakers again rather than having the live you are there feeling. No i'm not using the 2ch passthrough but instead am using one of the 5.1 active inputs since i need volume control.

You are the first person I've read who has used this unit and not thought it was superb. Everyone who added it to
their TA-E9000ES units for SACD/DVD-A playback has said
what a terrific preamp it is.

 

[Craig_Kg]

looks like i'm taking a step backwards for 2 channel sound quality. I have added a Sony TA-P9000es preamp for cd playback and i'm very disappointed so far.

Serge, unless you are using the TAP for SACD or DAV-A, I'd recommend inserting a good stereo preamp between the front channels instead.

 

[Serge Breton]

Richard,
thanks for pointing that out; i'm glad to be the FIRST to not find this unit superb. That's twice in the past couple of days you make smart ass comments and even though they may be harmless or unintentional i guess you have now become my hero. Yes that's right, you are my tutor, my mentor so to speak on the subject of audio. From now on, whenever i think i'm hearing something unpleasant from my sytem or have any question pertaining to audio, i will seek out your informative opinions. NOT!
I should rephrase that if ever i need someone to thread fart as you do so often to many members posting on this forum, i know who to count on....
Craig,
i bought the tAP to be emplyed solely as a 2 channel active preamp with an extra 5.1 input for dvdaudio/sacd to be employed later. My former Outlaw 950 at least on my system blows away the TAP or fun. 2 channel music through the TAP is flat, dull and there are absolutely no dynamics to speak of. I will break in the unit for a week but so far no go. I never thought one component could make such a difference on one's system, especially a multichannel preamp that is said to be very transparent like the TAP.Oh well sometimes when you combine three detailed/revealing components in one system that's the end result...

 

[Yee-Ming]

apples and oranges, isn't it? to ask someone to compare a Lexicon to a $500 receiver used as pre-pro?

but seriously, the salesman at the shop I go to was telling me that he does sell a lot of Marantz SR4200s (or was it 5200s?) for use as pre-pros. are there, after all, ANY dedicated pre-pros that cost the same as a SR4200? plus you (or someone else) get the flexibility of using the receiver in future as a receiver, or as I've seen someone mention on this forum before, go half-and-half and use 2 or 3 monoblocks to power the front 2 or 3 channels, and still use the receiver to power the surrounds.

 

[John Tompkins]

I have added a Sony TA-P9000es preamp for cd playback and i'm very disappointed so far. This preamp (thanks again Andy, like new as you said) is not at all transparent from what i'm finding, my system is now very harsh and i even have some signs of sibilance

Serge, Your not the first person, as I heard the same thing on my ta-p and that was combined with my (warm)parasound 2205 and my nht 2.9s. I love to crank my music up but with the ta-p it sounded like an all out assault on my ears at around 9 on the dial !

One other thing, for music purposes NOTHING beats a tube pre-amp.

For HT I have had 10-20 processors including lex mc-1, dc-2, dc-1, denon 3300, 3802,4802,adcom gtp830,sony strda7es, strda5es,onlyo 797 among others and my observation is that ALL of them where very good for ht purposes. As far as pure sonics go there wasnt much difference at all(used as a pre-amp). What did seperate the units was tweakability and ease of use. The lex being the most flexible plus logic 7 is a step up. The Sonys were incredible flexible and had the best bass management of all..incredible value for ht but really sucked for music(dont really matter as I have found out that a 200.00 bottlehead tube pre-amp kills them all for music anyways)

 

[Serge Breton]

John,
my sentiments exactly.
I have owned Parasound, Acurus Act-3 and Outlaw 950 and now a Kenwood midpriced receiver and all perform extremely well for home theater purposes as a PREAMP PROCESSOR.
Music is a different story so i won't go there. I'm looking for a good (cheap) preamp with 2 channel passthrough.
I actually think i'm going to keep the Kenwood or get a Denon 3802. In the Kenwood, i get the desired 80hz global crossover which is fine for HT in so long is THX is turned on. This receiver sounds damn good as a prepro! There a few things i don't care for, in particular the lack of 12 volt triggers but feature wise this receiver gets high marks nevertheless. The 6070 sounds as good as my other dedicated processors for HT, that's what my tests confirm over the past few weeks. Yes it's true, i thought i would never say it but it IS true

 

[JohnDW]

John/Serge

I'm beginning to believe the key element in pre-pro for HT is the chips - some of your receivers mentioned (Sony 4es and 7es e.g.) are very recent and using a good complement of fast, up to date chips/processing. And its ahrd for boutique pre-pro makers to churn out new product as new chips/processing appears.

Would be interested if anyone has tried HT processing of flagship receivers (Denon 5803 and Pioneer 49TX) - suspect thes migt well be best HT pre-pros of all, drivin separate amps...

 

[Serge Breton]

Yeah John, here is the press release from Analog Device who incorperates this exact chip in the VR-6070. I believe some of the expensive prepros out there also employ this same chip but can't say which units for sure.....I can't stress enough that this receiver works flawlessly as a prepro. Now i know everyones system is different but i'm telling you that it certainly can't hurt to audition this baby at home, your bound to keep it! For around $400 online, it's a steal for home theater.

ANALOG DEVICES MELODY® 32 DIGITAL AUDIO PROCESSOR DELIVERS LEADING AUDIO INDUSTRY FORMATS--

Delivers certified 8-channel surround in 32-bit precision of Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Pro Logic II, DTS-ES Extended Surround, DTS Neo:6 , SRS Circle Surround II, THX Surround EX, THX, AAC, MP3 and PCM Norwood, MA (June 17, 2002)- Analog Devices, Inc. (NYSE: ADI), a global leader in high-performance semiconductors for signal processing applications, today announced Melody 32, a new digital audio processor certified by the leading audio industry format providers, featuring 32-bit precision and delivering a wide complement of audio formats and post-processing capabilities to enable high -volume consumer applications with recording studio audio quality. Implemented with a new 32-bit software architecture designed to process digital audio signal formats efficiently and accurately, the Melody 32 audio processor implements Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Pro Logic II, DTS-ES Extended Surround, DTS Neo:6, SRS Circle Surround II, THX and THX Surround EX, AAC (two -channel, low complexity), MP3 (MPEG1 Audio Layer 3), PCM, Bass and Delay Management-all in 32 -bit precision in up to eight channels. The Melody 32 audio processor automatically detects the incoming bit stream and applies the appropriate code downloaded from the boot flash. "The Analog Devices' Melody 32 audio processor brings the 32-bit precision required for a recording studio quality listening experience to a new price point enabling a wider range of high -volume consumer digital audio products for customers in living room and automotive environments," said Mike Haidar, product line director, software & systems technology, DSP and system products division, Analog Devices, Inc. Certified by the leading audio format providers: Dolby, DTS, SRS Labs and Lucasfilm THX, the Melody 32 audio processor is available as a complete, fully -engineered reference design to accelerate development time for the fast-paced consumer market. Melody 32 is currently shipping to audio electronics customers. Also today, Kenwood announced three new A/V receivers, Models VR-6070, VR-6060, and VR-6050 which all use Analog Devices' new Melody 32 digital audio processor. The Kenwood A/V receivers are priced starting at a new low $200. price point. "Kenwood selected Analog Devices' Melody 32 audio processor because it implements all of the leading digital audio formats, enabling Kenwood to define a new class of A/V receivers delivering audiophile performance at popular consumer prices," said Brian Towne, director of product development for Kenwood USA Corporation. "The Melody 32 audio processor enables our new receivers and follow-on products to deliver the realism of multi-channel digital audio for the first time in new geographies and environments previously limited by price." Price and AvailabilityAnalog Devices' Melody 32 audio processor can be ordered under part number ADSST-Melody -32. An evaluation board with an evaluation copy of the software and schematics is priced at $1,250. in single quantities and is currently shipping to qualified customers. About Analog DevicesAnalog Devices is a leading manufacturer of precision high-performance integrated circuits used in analog and digital signal processing applications. The company is headquartered in Norwood, Massachusetts and employs approximately 8,800 people worldwide. It has manufacturing facilities in Massachusetts, California, North Carolina, Ireland, the Philippines, Taiwan and the United Kingdom. Analog Devices' stock is listed on the New York Stock Exchange and the company is included in the S&P 500 Index. 1Melody is a registered trademark of Analog Devices Inc. ©Lucasfilm, Ltd. All rights reserved. Surround EX is a jointly-developed technology of THX and Dolby Laboratories, Inc. "Dolby," "Pro Logic, " "Surround EX" and the double-D symbol are trademarks of Dolby Laboratories. DTS is a registered trademark and DTS ES is a trademark of Digital Theater Systems, Inc. SRS and the SRS symbol are registered trademarks of SRS Labs, Inc. in the United States and selected foreign countries. Page 1 of 2ADI - ANALOG DEVICES MELODY® 32 DIGITAL AUDIO PROCESSOR DELIVER...

 

[dave alan]

serge,
i reasoned the same. have tried marantz sr4200 and onkyo 797 as pre/pro thru my denon monoblocks.

the bottom line is that you "already have your 2 channel setup" and haven't counted the cost.

the 950 is the smartest way to go, cost and space considered. for $900, you would be hard pressed to find a decent av receiver AND a decent stereo preamp.

i am also convinced that bass management should be done strictly on an outboard basis (para eq, crossover, phase alignment, time alignment, room acoustics, sub-sonic filter, etc.), especially where dvd-a and sacd are concerned. again, outlaw has the right idea in this respect (icbm) and i am sure the next generations of outboard bm from them will be forthcoming.

simply as a process of elimination, the 950 is the only option left standing, at this point in time. i'm sure, in the near future, more options will appear. for now, i plan to use the 950 and upgrade it as outlaw (or others who will plan to compete with them) release new pre/pros.

i'm equally sure there may be more options available right now, and i'm about to hear them........but this is what i like about HTF.

 

[JohnDW]

serge - questions re kenwood 6070 as a pre pro (the price and chip seem right !)

the kenwood site says this receiver has full digital bass management (does that mean multiple increments ? if so, what are they ?)

can you confirm the kenwood 6070 processes DTS discrete as well ?

how is CRS Surround Sound as a DSP compared to DPLII, Logic 7 etc.

It appears you can have two sets of speakers a/b only can play one source at a time ?

although it lacks 12 v, it has 2 IR repeaters//

 

[JohnDW]

Serge (PS) The Melody 32 chip also doesnt do 82, 96 or 192 kHz decoding, DTS 96/24, or THX Ultra or Ultra 2...

 

[Serge Breton]

Well,

after playing around and familiarising myself a bit with this unit it sounds pretty good as mentionned and almost could live with it except for the following reasons.

80 hz crossover is set when in THX mode, however when playing a Dolby Digital EX dvd for example, with THX activated, only standard DD can be used with the 80hz crossover. To enable Dolby EX, THX mode must be turned off and then unfortunately the 100hz standard crossover is the only option unless you run large speakers all around. This is a no no in my book and the upper bass sounds a little thin since my SVS 20-39CS can play low and loud but at higher bass frequencies falls a little short. So i need at least a 60hz or minimum 80hz crossoverin my particular system to get full enjoyment from dvd playback.

24/96 DACs (prefer 24/192 dacs)

remote is garbage but that's ok since i use a Pronto anyways

John,

The 6070 does DTS ES discrete and i haven't experimented with the CS modes since i didn't really care for these on my Outlaw 950, i found that dynamics were lost so i preferred standard DD.

as mentionned in another thread, digital inputs are unassignable

user interface is average at best

This receiver is going back shortly....sounds great but not flexible enough for various systems.

I would buy the HK in a heartbeat if DD EX was available, the Pioneer Elite VSX-43tx or even the VSX-41tx looks promising. Many have compared the 811s to the VSX-41 but my guess that the price premium would consists of an adjustable crossover of some sort on the 41tx(i guess the 45tx has crossover points of 50, 80, 100, 150 and 200hz). The 811s crossover points are 100, 150 and 200 i believe. I would pay the extra $200 for this added flexibility

 

[Yee-Ming]

how is CRS Surround Sound as a DSP compared to DPLII, Logic 7 etc

so far, my reaction is that Circle Surround 5.1 gives the best results when playing back 2-channel music. DPL2 and Neo 6 are not as "expansive". my Marantz doesn't have Logic 7, though, so I can't comment on that.

again, so far when watching broadcast stereo TV, I've mainly used DPL2 instead, haven't really tried CS5.1 on TV yet, and will do so in future, but DPL2 does give good results.

I suspect that CS5.1 does redirect more to the surround speakers than DPL2, which is fine for music, but when watching TV, you don't want too much sound "bleeding" to the surrounds if it's not supposed to be there in the first place, bearing in mind what's going on on-screen.

 

[Serge Breton]

Well,

i think i have the crossover dilemma solved. When enabling auto THX surround EX decoding, the Kenwood sounds very good and the crossover between sub/mains remains at 80hz. If you enable DD EX (without THX) then the crossover now becomes 100hz which was my pet peeve with this receiver. By having auto THX surround EX, standard dolby digital disks are played back in dolby digital 5.1 while EX encoded disks are automatically played in Surround EX all the while with the THX standard 80hz crossover. I still have to confirm this with Kenwood tech support but this appears to solve the high crossover point problem on certain dvd's and with this receiver in general.

 

[Serge Breton]

Has anyone tried the Kenwood 6070 with their higher end amps for HT? I know what everybody's thinking, Kenwood:b Yes, i felt this way too and thought after an hour long demo this receiver would be back in the box and returned to the store just as quickly. I still have this receiver though after almost a month which is a good thing, i demoed a Denon 2802 last week as well but was disappointed with the sound of this receiver as a prepro (sound was warm but very veiled at the same time).
For $400ish for the 6070, i hope some of you will perform the same experiment i did. You will definitely be surprised but more so impressed with this receiver's home theater capabilities when used as a processor. Try it, you'll like it Buy a good 2 channel preamp with passthrough mated with the 6070 and you will have a combo that gives even the higher end processors a legitamate run in terms of sound quality.