A little experiment: Using a $500 receiver as a dedicated HT processor (1 Viewer)

[AndyHangartner]

Hey Serge,
I think this weekend I'll try the Aragon on the 4es just for giggles. I felt the dynamics were compressed at about 112db. Ok kidding. Only had it to 108db, and sounded fine. I might as well try it though beings it is sitting there. Craig is pretty much right on though. Once you have good H/T sound only minor differences may be achieved. I think dynamics ,good channel steering, and clear sounds (voice, and all the little distinguishable noises) did it for me. All the sound is highly processed anyways for H/T and definitely becomes less critical than 2 channel. Then add your preamp (Sony TAP for instance) and a good source, and save big on that expensive pre/pro, so you can upgrade next year when 12.4 (or whatever) comes out! Really firewire will be hitting soon and HDdvd also. I feel an upgrade coming!
andy

 

[Serge Breton]

Andy,
your Aragon can only improve the sonics of your system. My friend has an 8008 and it's a killer amp. I should be picking up my TA-P tomorrow (thanks) and let me know if you hear anything about the DA4ES....

 

[Peter Jessee]

Serge - thanks for the objective test, I've been considering this for a long time. Some of the newer $800-1000 receivers with enhanced bass management would make great pre-pros for HT. Receivers seem to incorporate the newest formats/features before separates, and many have truly excellent user interfaces.

I can't understand people saying that receivers being used as pre-pros will run out of dynamics - look at the power supply compared to ANY pre-pro! Even if the power amps are trying to run into an open output, there isn't any current draw so no voltage sag.

And a switched 12 volt output is easy - see those switched AC outlets? I have an adjustable 500 mA power supply plugged into my Denon 3300 to power cooling fans in my cabinet. Wire in a terminal strip and hook up all the amps you want! Total cost, about $15.

And the nice thing about upgrading a receiver every 2-3 years is that it's a receiver - it will run a system by itself. You can use it in the den, game room, garage, wherever. Or you can sell/give it to a friend/family member/progeny and get them hooked on your hobby, too. It's always convenient to have a ready market to unload your old stuff on when it's time to upgrade.

Let us know if you try a better receiver. The new Denon 2803/3803, Sony ES and H-K stuff looks like it has potential.

Peter

 

[Phuong]

Ultimately, the promise of flexibility keeps us hooked to separates. With receivers, we have to replace everything—preamp/amp/tuner/etc—to upgrade to the latest features. If its bass management weren't so low-fi (100 Hz) oriented, I wouldn't mind getting a Marantz SR4200 and converting it to a pre/pro when I outgrow its (claimed) 70 watts per channel.

 

[Will Gatlin Jr]

For those of you interested, you owe it to yourself to hear a properly set-up Lexicon L7 system, then decide.

 

[Serge Breton]

Will,
that's why i'm waiting (hopefully very soon) on the HK 325 and if need be the 525. Word is about having the ability to apply logic 7 to 5.1 sources. I'm beginning to salivate already but my hopes aren't too high, especially on the 325. I don't really care for the amp ratings on HK product but who cares, i'm not using the amps anyways. So long as the unit produces sonically (i'm sure it will)as a prepro and the price is reasonable, i'll be the first to dive in head first

 

[Will Gatlin Jr]

Serge...

Lexicon and HK's Logic 7 are two different sound formats. Hopefully someone will chime in and seperate the two.

 

[Brian Corr]

I was using a denon 3802 as a pre/pro for awhile with M&K 150's and an ATI 1505. I then borrowed an EAD encore.
There is a difference in the sound. The Denon tends to roll off the highs and sound a little flat.
The denon doesn't sound bad and is more than adequate for HT but didn't sound as good as the EAD. But the Denon has more features.
I would like to try an HK 520 as most who have compared it to denon says it sounds better, especially for 2 channel.

 

[Arthur S]

Serge

You mentioned 80Hz crossover rather than 100Hz on Pioneer for example. I spoke to Kenwood tech support and they said the crossover is 100Hz, however, when THX mode is engaged the crossover should switch to 80HZ.

Have you been using the THX mode in your experiment?

Thanks

Artie

 

[Yogi]

Yogi - what is the output voltage and impedance for your denon 3802, and what is the voltage needed to drive your amp to those loud levels ?

John the 3802 is rated to output 1.2V in a 10K impedance load. The Proceed requires 1.3V at a 11K input impedance. So you can see the Denon can drive the Proceed to full output. Most SS amps are 28K ohms or higher input impedance with only a few exceptions like some of the Aragon amps and Proceed amps. So most of the time the Denon would be able to put out more than 3V RMS in a 28K ohm impedance which is more than enough to drive most of the ss amps to full output.

 

[Serge Breton]

Arthur,

on cheaper receivers usually the crossover settings are 100hz and above. On the Kenwood 6070, you have a choice of either large speakers all around or the THX standard 80HZ crossover setting that can be applied to any of the speakers (mains, center, rear, rear center, sub). I prefer 60hz for the mains but for now for this test purpose, 80hz will do.

Brian,

i see you compared a Denon 3802 to the EAD. Sure there will be differences in sound, a receiver just like a prepro must be chosen to best match your existing amps and speakers. Just like when comparing the Rotel 1066 to the Outlaw 950 for instance, the Rotel carries a warmer sonic quality while the Outlaw is a little more in your face... With all the receivers out there, a little auditioning and one should be able to find a receiver that they will be happy with as a prepro. The Kenwood is OK but i want better....

 

[JohnDW]

Thanks Yogi-lets see if I have it staight - if the preamp (say from a Sony 4es) puts out say 2 volts at 1k Ohm impedance, and the separate amplifier input impedance is 22k ohm (and driven fully at 1.2 volts) , does that mean the preamp puts out 44 V RMS in this 22 kOhm impedance, hence will drive it fully with only 1/44 turn of the volume dial ?

John the 3802 is rated to output 1.2V in a 10K impedance load. The Proceed requires 1.3V at a 11K input impedance. So you can see the Denon can drive the Proceed to full output. Most SS amps are 28K ohms or higher input impedance with only a few exceptions like some of the Aragon amps and Proceed amps. So most of the time the Denon would be able to put out more than 3V RMS in a 28K ohm impedance which is more than enough to drive most of the ss amps to full output.

 

[Yogi]

Thanks Yogi-lets see if I have it staight - if the preamp (say from a Sony 4es) puts out say 2 volts at 1k Ohm impedance, and the separate amplifier input impedance is 22k ohm (and driven fully at 1.2 volts) , does that mean the preamp puts out 44 V RMS in this 22 kOhm impedance, hence will drive it fully with only 1/44 turn of the volume dial ?

Thats exactly right. However I dont know of any ss preamp that will put out that much voltage in that small an impedance load. But I could be wrong.

 

[Arthur S]

Serge

I understand that with all speakers set to Large they will get bass all the way down. What I was trying to get to is that according to Kenwoood tech support, if you are not using the receiver in THX mode, say for example, just DD5.1 with no THX added, any speaker not set to Large will cross over to the sub at 100Hz, not 80Hz.

Artie

PS I just spoke to another tech at Kenwood who verified that the crossover for non THX mode operation for any speaker not set to Large is 100 Hz, not 80Hz. 80Hz crossover is only available when THX is engaged.

 

[RichardMA]

i see you compared a Denon 3802 to the EAD. Sure there will be differences in sound, a receiver just like a prepro must be chosen to best match your existing amps and speakers. Just like when comparing the Rotel 1066 to the Outlaw 950 for instance,

The Denon and Outlaw are not in the same class
as the EAD. Also, the EAD will sound better on any
speaker than either of the other two, if detail and
smoothness is what you are after. If some people have
not had a chance to hear a high end processor, I'd go find
one and try it. I got rid of an old Angstrom Pro-Logic
processor ($4000) to go DD a few years back but there was
no doubt it produced much "better" sound in Pro-Logic
than any of the Japanese low or mid-fi receivers I've used.

 

[Serge Breton]

Arthur,

i didn't know that! I looked through the whole manual looking for the crossover point and found nothing specific. I just assumed that the crossover point was 80hz due to the THX certification. I don't understand this thinking on Kenwoods part. Why would they have a 100hz crossover in all other modes and an 80hz crossover with THX engaged. This makes no sense whatsoever to me. Thanks for the clarification. This receiver is going back sooner than i thought then....

 

[Craig_Kg]

Thanks Yogi-lets see if I have it staight - if the preamp (say from a Sony 4es) puts out say 2 volts at 1k Ohm impedance, and the separate amplifier input impedance is 22k ohm (and driven fully at 1.2 volts) , does that mean the preamp puts out 44 V RMS in this 22 kOhm impedance, hence will drive it fully with only 1/44 turn of the volume dial ?

No, the preamp stages act like a voltage source with high impedance loads. With low impedance, the voltage may drop a bit but not in that sort of ratio - for a 1 kOhm impedance, the voltage might drop by 10%.
44V RMS would be more than the rail voltage of most receiver amplifier stages.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Will- I'm still waiting (and hoping) for a Lexicon with Logic 7 and DD EX/DTS-ES/DPL II (although with L7 maybe wouldn't need DD EX/DTS-ES), but also with 5.1 analog inputs. And, for less than $3k-ish list.
I'll also be looking at the H/K 525 when it comes out. I've never actually heard anyone compare Lexicon and H/K implementations. I would *hope* Logic 7 is Logic 7 no matter who the manufacturer is.

 

[Phil M]

I would *hope* Logic 7 is Logic 7 no matter who the manufacturer is.

Lexicon & HK are both owned by Harman International, and it is my understanding that Harmon Int. holds the license. At least according to my HK AVR 320 book, which reads:

"the AVR 320 offers Harman International's exclusive Logic 7 process in both 5.1 and 7.1 versions..."

Now in the Lex's you get the ability to apply L7 to a digital source, plus many other parameters/settings that you don't get with the HK's, but I'm guessing that the "base" L7 processing is the same.

All I know is that the L7 processing is about the only thing keeping me from selling my HK and buying a Rotel 1066. Whenever I get the urge, I simply watch something like Enterprise and switch back/forth between L7 and DPLII and decide.... I think I'll keep the HK.

Phil

 

[Holadem]

I see, you guys are saying that the receivers preamp stage is insufficient to feed enough juice for the power amps at high levels.

Absolutely ridiculous statement. The input impedance of an ideal amplifer is infinite. The input impedance of an actual amplifier is in the dozens of KILO OHMS at least. There is nothing to drive.

The current drawn from the preamp section is negligible, and ideally ZERO. The amp does not draw current from the preamp.

Preamp sections outputs provide SIGNALS not power.

--
Holadem