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Douglas R

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If you look at the trivia for PAINT YOUR WAGON on IMDB you'll see that Alan Lerner claimed that he found and employed her. We've obviously read the same marvellous book, Andre Previn's NO MINOR CHORDS, and I believe his version.
Given that Previn was such a self-publicist and that his book has factual errors, I'm not sure I would accept his version.
 

roxy1927

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If you look at the trivia for PAINT YOUR WAGON on IMDB you'll see that Alan Lerner claimed that he found and employed her. We've obviously read the same marvelous book, Andre Previn's NO MINOR CHORDS, and I believe his version.
It is a terrific book. I haven't read it in years. I don't remember those errors so I'll have to reread it.
It seems everybody takes credit for the idea of the black and white Ascot sequence in MFL but the idea had been used before in other shows.
 
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B-ROLL

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It is a terrific book. I haven't read it in years. I don't remember those errors so I'll have to reread it.
It seems everybody takes credit for the idea of the black and white Ascot sequence in MFL but the idea had been used before in other shows.
...and R2D2 was their car radio antenna :rolleyes:
 

JPCinema

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I watched the first half of the Hallelujah Trail blu ray from Kino. The color seems muted , almost brown and a bit grainy. I started comparing it to the HDnet version. Wow ! The HDnet version is superior to the blu ray! It is sharper with much more color and brightness. I wonder what happened?
 

usrunnr

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Mine was shipped direct from Kino, but when I checked the UPS tracking, a note said that the sender had requested the package be sent back. Anybody else have this happen???????
 

RolandL

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I watched the first half of the Hallelujah Trail blu ray from Kino. The color seems muted , almost brown and a bit grainy. I started comparing it to the HDnet version. Wow ! The HDnet version is superior to the blu ray! It is sharper with much more color and brightness. I wonder what happened?

I'm waiting to see some screen shots to compare to HDNET.
 

Vern Dias

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I'm waiting to see some screen shots to compare to HDNET.
Well here are your screen shots. Make sure you click on the first screen shot and page through them to easily see the differences.

The stream:
Stream.png


The BD:
BD.png


Video Scopes:

The stream:
Stream_VideoScopes.png


The BD:

BD_VideoScopes.png


Notice that the color balance wasn't changed between the two versions, although the stream exibited a little bit of clipping on the brightest reds on this specific frame.
What did appear to change was the black levels are elevated on the BD compared to the stream which may account for the sightly duller overall look.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much more disturbing to me and not previously mentioned was the vertical stretch that was applied to deliver an artificial 2.20:1 AR on the BD. Take a look and compare both the previous 2 screen shots and the next two from a different scene.

Stream:

Stream_AR.png


BD:

BD_AR.png


Comparing all the above screen shots, there is no additional image revealed at the top and bottom of the BD images. Looking at the final two and comparing them, look closely at the slight oval shape of the whisky bottles on the BD.

I'll leave it to the readers to choose the best version, but I have to lean towards the streaming version myself.
 

OliverK

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While it is relatively easy to adjust the black level not too many people will have an easy way to readjust the aspect ratio.
It is ironic that Kino would make this mistake as they have been the label that readjusted the aspect ratio for The Big Country in their release.
 

BobO'Link

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Well here are your screen shots. Make sure you click on the first screen shot and page through them to easily see the differences.

The stream:
View attachment 167539

The BD:
View attachment 167540

Video Scopes:

The stream:
View attachment 167548

The BD:

View attachment 167549

Notice that the color balance wasn't changed between the two versions, although the stream exibited a little bit of clipping on the brightest reds on this specific frame.
What did appear to change was the black levels are elevated on the BD compared to the stream which may account for the sightly duller overall look.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much more disturbing to me and not previously mentioned was the vertical stretch that was applied to deliver an artificial 2.20:1 AR on the BD. Take a look and compare both the previous 2 screen shots and the next two from a different scene.

Stream:

View attachment 167541

BD:

View attachment 167542

Comparing all the above screen shots, there is no additional image revealed at the top and bottom of the BD images. Looking at the final two and comparing them, look closely at the slight oval shape of the whisky bottles on the BD.

I'll leave it to the readers to choose the best version, but I have to lean towards the streaming version myself.
I think you have the AR issue reversed - to me, the streaming version looks to be slightly squashed and has ovals which should be circles and the BD, which you say is vertically stretched, looks normal in that respect. Look at the buttons as well... I also prefer the slightly "brighter" image on the BR over the streaming, which to me looks too dark in the blacks.
 

Vern Dias

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I think you have the AR issue reversed - to me, the streaming version looks to be slightly squashed and has ovals which should be circles and the BD, which you say is vertically stretched, looks normal in that respect. Look at the buttons as well... I also prefer the slightly "brighter" image on the BR over the streaming, which to me looks too dark in the blacks.
It's possible, but in another shot that had a clock face on it, I observed the that it was also slightly oval on the BD, while it was round on the streaming version. In any case it's not really a big deal most most viewers.

On my 2.76:1 constant height screen setup using the 2.20:1 setting playing the BD results in a reduced image width on the screen which takes the image further from it's intended 2.76:1 OAR.
 
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Simon Lewis

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I've measured the aspect ratios on the screen shots and the stream is about 2.5:1 and the BD 2.35:1.
 

Vern Dias

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I've measured the aspect ratios on the screen shots and the stream is about 2.5:1 and the BD 2.35:1.
Unfortunately, the ratio of the height to the width of the frame is not a good indicator of whether the actual content of the frame is in the original correct aspect ratio or not.

Any video editing program allows the use of controls to scale the height and or width of the output frame and to adjust the cropping as well.

You have to look at the actual content of the video for hints like wagon wheels, clock faces, or other circular objects being oval rather than round. That indicates that somebody has messed with the AR in the process of creating the master used for the transfer to video.

That was the giveaway that revealed the original botched AR release of "The Big Country".

I agree with the stream AR being 2.5:1, but I have a suspicion based on looking at some of the shots on the stream involving wagons that the wheels are slightly elliptical, showing a possible slight vertical stretch.
I haven't measured the height and width of said wagon wheels (yet), but if the measurements show their height being slightly greater than their width, that would indicate the source was likely 2.76:1 and was slightly stretched vertically to produce the 2.5:1 AR master used for the steaming video release.

In any case, it's an interesting supposition.
 

RolandL

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As I reported elsewhere, the Blu-ray is cropped on the top, bottom and left side compared to the old DVD release which was about 2.2. So, you are probably getting about 2.1 (76%) of the width of the 2.76 Ultra Panavision image on the HDNet/Kino Lorber Blu-ray.

DVD
1671733934585.png


HDNET/Kino Lorber Blu-ray
1671733985254.png
 

ManW_TheUncool

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Even if you use perfectly circular objects to determine whether the image is distorted, you have to make sure those objects were shot straight, not at some off angle, for such determination. Afterall, camera/lens perspective can have a distorting sorta effect on the image as well. And of course, sometimes, such perceived distortions might be intentional... though I suppose that's much less likely the case for this film.

_Man_
 

roxy1927

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Those two images are very different in terms of colors. I wonder which is right. Though I understand screen shots can be deceiving.
 

usrunnr

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I hope I get my copy some day. Kino shipped it then their shipper returned it to them. They are saying they will re-ship, but I do not know how quickly, especially at this time of year. It's very strange.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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Those two images are very different in terms of colors. I wonder which is right. Though I understand screen shots can be deceiving.

The main/biggest diff in that respect seems to be contrast (and maybe saturation), not so much color per se. And that's reflected in the video scopes Vern also showed above (though not sure if that's uniform across the entire film). If need be and that's all that is, one can probably quickly/simply adjust that a tad during playback (even though that's not ideal of course)...

_Man_
 

Vern Dias

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Unfortunately, the ratio of the height to the width of the frame is not a good indicator of whether the actual content of the frame is in the original correct aspect ratio or not.

Any video editing program allows the use of controls to scale the height and or width of the output frame and to adjust the cropping as well.

You have to look at the actual content of the video for hints like wagon wheels, clock faces, or other circular objects being oval rather than round. That indicates that somebody has messed with the AR in the process of creating the master used for the transfer to video.

That was the giveaway that revealed the original botched AR release of "The Big Country".

I agree with the stream AR being 2.5:1, but I have a suspicion based on looking at some of the shots on the stream involving wagons that the wheels are slightly elliptical, showing a possible slight vertical stretch.
I haven't measured the height and width of said wagon wheels (yet), but if the measurements show their height being slightly greater than their width, that would indicate the source was likely 2.76:1 and was slightly stretched vertically to produce the 2.5:1 AR master used for the steaming video release.

In any case, it's an interesting supposition.
Took a further look and it's a close call. Can't measure the wagon wheels accurately because they are sunk into the dirt at the bottom. The clock face in the commanders office is still slightly taller than it is is wide, but that could depend on how high the camera was that took the shot. So no definite conclusions here.
 

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