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UHD Review A Few Words About A few words about...™ -The Godfather(s) 50th Anniversary Restoration -- in 4k UHD (2 Viewers)

DarkVader

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Best example I can think of is To Kill a Mockingbird. It's an attempt to mitigate grain in very grainy scenes or films. Most recently, it involves degraining a harvest, then adding back "simulated grain" in an effort to create a uniform appearance of grain in movies originated on film. Much like "simulated" stereo, it doesn't really work.

In the case of To Kill a Mockingbird, it was used to mitigate grain in a handful of scenes where footage was zoomed or cropped, thus enlarging the grain in those shots. If you know what to look for, it's rather obvious.
Oh, thank you very much for taking the time to explain this to me. I appreciate it.
 

Robert Harris

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Best example I can think of is To Kill a Mockingbird. It's an attempt to mitigate grain in very grainy scenes or films. Most recently, it involves degraining a harvest, then adding back "simulated grain" in an effort to create a uniform appearance of grain in movies originated on film. Much like "simulated" stereo, it doesn't really work.

In the case of To Kill a Mockingbird, it was used to mitigate grain in a handful of scenes where footage was zoomed or cropped, thus enlarging the grain in those shots. If you know what to look for, it's rather obvious.
They should have left it, then…
 

Robert Crawford

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They should have left it, then…
Man, you guys are confusing people now because "To Kill a Mockingbird" received good reviews and was highly recommended by you. Are we having revised reviews about "grain" now?

 

Robert Harris

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Man, you guys are confusing people now because "To Kill a Mockingbird" received good reviews and was highly recommended by you. Are we having revised reviews about "grain" now?

Shouldn't be confusing. As I recall, a single shot was field enlarged, and grain was removed. Overall, a great release.
 

cda1143

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...It's actually a bit telling how they just gloss over it quickly compared to how much time they spend talking about all the other parts of the restoration. The whole thing is worth listening to. They talk about grain management which is also another issue with this release (though all things considered the altered color timing is my main problem with this version, I can deal with the grain management if the color timing was correct).
...
Agreed. A worthwhile listen. I also found it telling. One could hear quite a bit of tip-toeing around the issues of color and grain. And both guests made it very clear that they kept their hands off the grain, with any massaging being done further up the chain by Paramount - not Zoetrope.
 

cda1143

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Then it seems like nit-picking to me.
Best example I can think of is To Kill a Mockingbird. It's an attempt to mitigate grain in very grainy scenes or films. Most recently, it involves degraining a harvest, then adding back "simulated grain" in an effort to create a uniform appearance of grain in movies originated on film. Much like "simulated" stereo, it doesn't really work.

In the case of To Kill a Mockingbird, it was used to mitigate grain in a handful of scenes where footage was zoomed or cropped, thus enlarging the grain in those shots. If you know what to look for, it's rather obvious.
To answer a very good question, Stephen cited an excellent example from Mockingbird to demonstrate grain manipulation. This doesn't make a revised review, or rescind praise from the very positive Mockingbird review. I don't see anyone picking on, nor especially nit-picking, as this shot is blatantly obvious on anything larger than a tablet. That's what makes it such a great explanation.

It's a great shot to discuss grain manipulation. The manipulation is obvious, and the reasoning for either altering, or leaving untouched, is understandable. People can disagree on which is preferred, but the reasons are clear and valid. This was a reasoned decision, not merely an individual at a dial deciding "I think the whole film should look like... ah - that's it."
 

Robert Crawford

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To answer a very good question, Stephen cited an excellent example from Mockingbird to demonstrate grain manipulation. This doesn't make a revised review, or rescind praise from the very positive Mockingbird review. I don't see anyone picking on, nor especially nit-picking, as this shot is blatantly obvious on anything larger than a tablet. That's what makes it such a great explanation.

It's a great shot to discuss grain manipulation. The manipulation is obvious, and the reasoning for either altering, or leaving untouched, is understandable. People can disagree on which is preferred, but the reasons are clear and valid. This was a reasoned decision, not merely an individual at a dial deciding "I think the whole film should look like... ah - that's it."
Do people know what shot you’re talking about?
 

Robert Harris

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Agreed. A worthwhile listen. I also found it telling. One could hear quite a bit of tip-toeing around the issues of color and grain. And both guests made it very clear that they kept their hands off the grain, with any massaging being done further up the chain by Paramount - not Zoetrope.
Correct
 

Robert Harris

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Do people know what shot you’re talking about?
During the trial. A witness on the stand. If memory serves, possibly either Mr. Peters or Ms Paxton.

As I recall, it’s an optical during which the camera moves in, and the grain grows nicely. It was obviously a change during post.
 

Robert Crawford

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During the trial. A witness on the stand. If memory serves, possibly either Mr. Peters or Ms Paxton.

As I recall, it’s an optical during which the camera moves in, and the grain grows nicely. It was obviously a change during post.
I know the scene very well as my question was rhetorical as I’m just venting my frustration. By the way, it was Ms. Paxton.
 

Robert Harris

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I know the scene very well as my question was rhetorical as I’m just venting my frustration. By the way, it was Ms. Paxton.
With apologies, I used her name later in life. I believe she was credited as Collin Wilcox. An extraordinary performance.

Between she and Brock Peters - Magic.
 

Carlo Medina

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Agreed. A worthwhile listen. I also found it telling. One could hear quite a bit of tip-toeing around the issues of color and grain. And both guests made it very clear that they kept their hands off the grain, with any massaging being done further up the chain by Paramount - not Zoetrope.
That was my interpretation as well. And let's remember AZ needs to maintain a good working relationship with Paramount (and vice versa). No one is going to throw anyone else under the bus, at least publicly. To me the way they spoke at great length about the other steps, and basically breezed by both the color and grain management, is probably as close to an admission of "we aren't going to discuss this at length" as we're going to get.

For any of us who have worked in big companies, or on big projects, involving collaboration between multiple people in multiple departments...once a product is released, it doesn't matter if you know that someone else in another department maybe didn't follow the vision to a T, you publicly support that product and you talk glowingly about the parts you worked on, and just speak in generalities (or outright defer) about the things you didn't directly work on.

We are never going to get a "well we wanted to follow Mr. Willis's color timing exactly, but someone down the line messed it up" admission, because 1) that's just not the way things are done on collaborative projects, especially between two companies that have so much history together, and 2) it would be bad for business and product sales.
 

owen35

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Best example I can think of is To Kill a Mockingbird. It's an attempt to mitigate grain in very grainy scenes or films. Most recently, it involves degraining a harvest, then adding back "simulated grain" in an effort to create a uniform appearance of grain in movies originated on film. Much like "simulated" stereo, it doesn't really work.

In the case of To Kill a Mockingbird, it was used to mitigate grain in a handful of scenes where footage was zoomed or cropped, thus enlarging the grain in those shots. If you know what to look for, it's rather obvious.
I'm reminded of "It's A Wonderful Life" in the scene with Jimmy Stewart is at the bar and gets very emotional. Capra added a push-in on Stewart for a more dramatic effect that was done by blowing up the frame. The grain gets really heavy at that moment. But in the 4K they didn't clean it up (at least I didn't notice it).
 

TonyD

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I’m going to ask about the digital versions now.
I have the iTunes copy which I’ve already stated don’t look great to me.
Especially the very beginning in Vito’s den before the wedding and I think in GF2 when they go into the back room where the senator’s “worker” was murdered in his bed.
Even with the DV active it looks rough.

So I noticed that Paramount + now has these up in 4K with DV.

It looks significantly better then the stream on iTunes.

Wondering if anyone has tken a peak to see this.
 

Robert Crawford

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I’m going to ask about the digital versions now.
I have the iTunes copy which I’ve already stated don’t look great to me.
Especially the very beginning in Vito’s den before the wedding and I think in GF2 when they go into the back room where the senator’s “worker” was murdered in his bed.
Even with the DV active it looks rough.

So I noticed that Paramount + now has these up in 4K with DV.

It looks significantly better then the stream on iTunes.

Wondering if anyone has tken a peak to see this.
Tony,

I haven't compared the two different streaming services, but I thought the 4K discs looked better than the iTunes 4K stream.
 

owen35

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EDIT: what's telling about the podcast host's lack of knowledge re: color intent by Mr. Willis, he mentions something about (paraphrasing here) being able to correct things that were "blown out". Again completely unaware that blown out anscochrome look was exactly what Willis was going for. It's akin to taking a "sharpening pass" over a Monet painting. It's supposed to be blurry.
[deleted this comment.]
 

owen35

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That was my interpretation as well. And let's remember AZ needs to maintain a good working relationship with Paramount (and vice versa). No one is going to throw anyone else under the bus, at least publicly. To me the way they spoke at great length about the other steps, and basically breezed by both the color and grain management, is probably as close to an admission of "we aren't going to discuss this at length" as we're going to get.
===
We are never going to get a "well we wanted to follow Mr. Willis's color timing exactly, but someone down the line messed it up" admission, because 1) that's just not the way things are done on collaborative projects, especially between two companies that have so much history together, and 2) it would be bad for business and product sales.
Is it possible that AZ finished the film, matching Willis' color, and sent it off to Paramount who went "okay, let's make a few tweaks!"? I don't know how this "restoration pipeline" worked, but that would make A LOT more sense to me as to why AZ and Francis would say "we were guided by Gordie's work" and then we see the results which are not that.
 

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