A Few Words About A few words about…™ Terminator 2 — in 4k UHD Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Brent Reid]

I'm returning mine back to Amazon. It's sitting on the table ready for me to print and slap on the return labels. I didn't even open the package as I'm removing this edition from my collection. Speaking of package, even Robert Patrick's package has now been, um, removed from this release.

 

[David Wilkins]

Put me in the abomination column. This disc really, really sucks. I think Mr. Harris mentioned the notorious issue with the original 'Patton' Blu-ray as being a similar example of severity, and I agree completely. This is absolutely the most DNR ravaged disc I've seen since that first 'Patton' release. Why they authorized this thing for release is beyond me.

 

[Brent Reid]

Put me in the abomination column. This disc really, really sucks. I think Mr. Harris mentioned the notorious issue with the original 'Patton' Blu-ray as being a similar example of severity, and I agree completely. This is absolutely the most DNR ravaged disc I've seen since that first 'Patton' release. Why they authorized this thing for release is beyond me.

I agree wholeheartedly. It beggars belief that after so many years of edge-enhanced, tealed, DNRed misfires, major labels are still releasing substandard crap like this. Especially when it gives a glimpse at just how good T2 really could look. Sadly though, some reviewers, along with the overwhelming majority of consumers, will happily gobble it up, believing it represents the latest and greatest in vintage film-to-home video transfers.

The generally enlightened folk on forums like this one are sadly in a tiny minority. I'm sure we've all got a million horror stories about dear friends and close family members who are blissfully happy with badly compromised home A/V. This, despite years of us gently trying to educate them or even adjust and improve their set-ups for them.

I own multiple copies of T2 on BD and DVD, but my go-to viewing disc shall remain the UK 2008 Optimum/StudioCanal BD, which has the same transfer as the US 2015 Lionsgate BD. They're bound to have another go within the next decade or so; maybe next time they'll finally get it right.

 

[Mr. Masters]

It's easier for the conversion company (Stereo D) to convert the 2-D image to 3-D by eliminating the film grain. However, normally artificial grain is added back into the image to make it look less like plastic and more like film like they did with Titanic 3-D. This didn't happen on the T2 master for some reason. The T2 3-D conversion was done on a smaller budget than Titanic, so that may explain why.

Lionsgate and StudioCanal should have went back to the original 4k scan before grain removal was performed for the 3-D conversion. I'm sure Cameron has that original scan stored somewhere.

I don't think they added fake grain on "Titanic".
It seems to me, they made a perfect new 4K transfer and then moved to 3D convertion and degrained the film in this process. That makes a lot more sense for preservation, when you have a perfect new transfer with grain intact.

They degrained and added artrificial grain on "Aliens" because Cameron was never satisfied with the heavy grain of the used high speed negative back in 1986.

The big question on T2 is, if an 4K transfer with intact grain exist or they degrained the picture directly after the scanning process and bevor color grading. The new color grading was approved by James Cameron and DoP Adam Greenberg.

 

[dpippel]

"Cameron approved" doesn't seem to mean much. Aside from Avatar, most of his work that's been released on Blu-ray or 4K UHD ranges from looking decidedly mediocre to looking like crap. Not a very good track record for a guy who has the reputation of being an absolute perfectionist. I don't get it.

 

[Nick*Z]

Ostensibly, whoever is responsible for this release should have their 'remastering' license revoked and never work in the industry again.

 

[Robert Harris]

While de-graining used to mean a loss of high frequency information, this hasn’t been true since John Lowry arrived on the scene.

One can de-grain, lose no information, and then add noise back to an image, if desired.

Back when we were testing The Godfather(s) at half a dozen post houses, I made certain that Lowry had a crack at it.

The bullet points: follow original reference color, extremely clean, repaired, full stability, and no changes to original film grain.

When they presented their candidate, they got everything correct, except that there was zero grain.

The image was so startlingly resolved that it led a high level studio tech, to refer to it as “looks like a f**king CBS movie of the week!”

The projected image appeared as though we were viewing a live scene on the other side of a large picture window.

So, there is no question that one can remove grain without not only damaging the imagery, but enhancing it.

Unfortunately, that wasn’t what the original filmmakers were looking for in that specific case.

But if someone IS seeking that look, there is no question that they have the algorithm.

 

[Dave H]

Regarding Aliens on Blu-ray, done by Lowry's de-graining and re-graining process, what a fantastic transfer.

 

[DVDvision]

I think the T2 situation is a conundrum.

IMHO, they worked the process that way:

- 4K raw scan is done with grain intact.
- All the grain is removed in 4K.
- Digital fixes in 4K are done as all the image elements will be broken down. You have to remove stuff that stands out like when the crew is in plain sight of a shot, or do fixes like head removal/replacement of stuntmen at this stage.
- 3D conversion is then done in 2K.

So there is no way to go back to the raw scan because you would have to put back in all the digital fixes which would probably take at least a week, and put the grain back in the places where the digital fixes were done so that it's seamless. (or completely swap shots and match grain). It's like precision work and it takes time.

So The only way you can add grain back in the 4K now is the Lowry way. By then you would have to get it approved by Jim, which might takes months, if years. You might also want to do the same to the SE elements. I hope it happens down the line.

 

[Robert Harris]

I think the T2 situation is a conundrum.

IMHO, they worked the process that way:

- 4K raw scan is done with grain intact.
- All the grain is removed in 4K.
- Digital fixes in 4K are done as all the image elements will be broken down. You have to remove stuff that stands out like when the crew is in plain sight of a shot, or do fixes like head removal/replacement of stuntmen at this stage.
- 3D conversion is then done in 2K.

So there is no way to go back to the raw scan because you would have to put back in all the digital fixes which would probably take at least a week, and put the grain back in the places where the digital fixes were done so that it's seamless. (or completely swap shots and match grain). It's like precision work and it takes time.

So The only way you can add grain back in the 4K now is the Lowry way. By then you would have to get it approved by Jim, which might takes months, if years. You might also want to do the same to the SE elements. I hope it happens down the line.

The problem with this 4k is not simply grain removal.

 

[DVDvision]

Weird eh? My initial reaction was that it was the old scan source upscaled.
It has a plastic look that even 4K images at 60mb each that Studio Canal provided me, shows.
In the press book interview, JC says they scanned the negative. That's what they told him, but I'm wondering about this.

Remember in 2002 they scanned in HD the film I think from an IP, and in 16/9 to get maximum data info, for the X-Treme edition. Upscaling this to 4K and doing a makeover doesn't sound so crazy to me.

Also both versions shows clipping in the same places, which I don't remember the film version having.

 

[Mr. Masters]

Petition for a flawless Terminator 2 release:
https://www.hometheaterforum.com/co...n-for-a-flawless-terminator-2-release.358751/

 

[David Norman]

Edited and apologies offered

 

[Mr. Masters]

I think the T2 situation is a conundrum.

IMHO, they worked the process that way:

- 4K raw scan is done with grain intact.
- All the grain is removed in 4K.
- Digital fixes in 4K are done as all the image elements will be broken down. You have to remove stuff that stands out like when the crew is in plain sight of a shot, or do fixes like head removal/replacement of stuntmen at this stage.
- 3D conversion is then done in 2K.

So there is no way to go back to the raw scan because you would have to put back in all the digital fixes which would probably take at least a week, and put the grain back in the places where the digital fixes were done so that it's seamless. (or completely swap shots and match grain). It's like precision work and it takes time.

So The only way you can add grain back in the 4K now is the Lowry way. By then you would have to get it approved by Jim, which might takes months, if years. You might also want to do the same to the SE elements. I hope it happens down the line.

The situation is different here:
-4K raw scan and remastering done with film grain by James Cameron's production company Lightstorm Entertainment (Geoff Burdick supervised the restoration).
-Final color grading appoved by colorist Skip Kimball, director James Cameron and director of photography Adam Greenberg.
-Digital Fixes in 4K like they did with Aliens and Titanic.
-Deraining the picture for the 3D conversion process by Stereo D
-Studiocanal mixed up the masters and used the degrained 3D master for 2D Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray.

Some sources say, that on iTunes USA a 4K version with intact film grain exists. It make no sense to degrain the 4K scan or the 4K master, because DNR is only necessary for the 3D conversion. Look at the 4K masters of The Terminator, Aliens, The Abyss and Titanic, the film grain is always intact.

Oh boy, a petition -- that'll get their attention

That is only part 1 of the plan. ;-)
Part 2 is to contact James Cameron's production company Lightstorm Entertainment, they made the new 4K master.

 

[dpippel]

Good luck with that. Cameron doesn't care. Look at the situation with The Abyss and True Lies.

 

[David Norman]

Self-edited and apology for any unnecessary offense

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Some sources say, that on iTunes USA a 4K version with intact film grain exists. It make no sense to degrain the 4K scan or the 4K master, because DNR is only necessary for the 3D conversion. Look at the 4K masters of The Terminator, Aliens, The Abyss and Titanic, the film grain is always intact.


.

I noticed the 4K version on iTunes has dropped to $4.99 (same on Vudu). I was tempted to give it a try, but thought I'd wait for the possibility of a better transfer and extended version to make it's way to UHD disc. Maybe I'll roll the dice at that price.

 

[Wayne_j]

I did give it a try on iTunes last night and there was no grain to be seen. They did do an excellent job degraining it though, tons of detail.

 

[Lord Dalek]

Petition for a flawless Terminator 2 release:
https://www.hometheaterforum.com/co...n-for-a-flawless-terminator-2-release.358751/

To be filed alongside that LG 3DTV petition in the realm of useless endeavors.

 

[Colin Jacobson]

To be filed alongside that LG 3DTV petition in the realm of useless endeavors.

Hey, it's better than the boycott some dope is running to try to get AMC to give money to MoviePass!