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OliverK

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The difference between an OCN scan or an IP scan is extremely minimal. So much so that a modern Eastman print derived from a dupe neg, derived from a quality IP, derived from the OCN should have hardly perceptible differences in projection. The difference should be softer edges on the halide crystals.

One can achieve the same appearance either scanning an IP or very slightly softening an image. This has nothing to do with de-graining. The only problem in scanning an IP, which I know is preferred by some filmmakers, is financial, as there is no 4k+ scan of the OCN as a digital archival element.

The most important attribute of QUALITY digital work, is that it go unnoticed.

As an example, I submit MFL. There was no need to soften the image as the original 8k scans had been brought down to 4k, and sharpening which we did to equalize grain structure between OCN and masters was limited to +7%.

The entire final 4k image had the appearance of an original 70mm print.

I have no way to compare results between OCN and elements that are several generations removed but I have to agree that I would prefer a negative scan vs a scan from an IP as I would prefer the maximum amount of detail to be preserved in perpetuity.
On the other hand is it not considered best practice to also have analog preservation elements just in case something goes wrong with those bits and bytes?

My Fair Lady does not have that sharpened look on UHD which is very much appreciated and I also found the UHD to be a nice improvement over the BD.
 

Rob W

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Reason why I have to import is, for whatever reason, Paramount doesn’t release their Paramount Presents titles in Canada. It’s lame.

Bay St Video in Toronto brings them in as imports but it's costly - I paid $65 for my copy of OUATITW.
 

Rob W

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What about Rarewaves or even Diabolik?

Not sure there's any significant savings given the exchange rate and shipping costs. All I had to do was walk two blocks to pick my copy up in person. (And it's still great to be to walk into a store on a Tuesday and see a rack filled with new releases. Not many of us can still do that.)
 

titch

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Why did you get so many of these movies twice - did you HAVE to have them knowing they were better or did you expect more of a difference each time?

I am only familiar with Citzen Kane and Mulholland Drive and the better encodes at the time did not seem to warrant another purchase, the difference did not seem big enough.
I purchased the European Citizen Kane, The Three Colors Trilogy and Mulholland Drive 4K UHDs, because some people on forums were saying how much better they looked than the Criterions, because of "superior encoding". Complete rubbish, as I found out. Hardly any discernible visible difference. Videodrome and Wings Of Desire were first released in Europe and I wasn't sure whether Criterion would be releasing them. Hardly any discernible visible difference, when I compared them. I purchased Arrow Video's 4K UHD Limited Editions of Carrie and Invaders Of The Body Snatchers, after the Kino Lorbers for the supplements - again, hardly any discernible visible difference.

So "superior encoding" isn't something that will make me rush out and double-dip. I don't peer at film frames on my computer screen, to decide whether I like the look of the video, or not. It's what it looks like on my projector (which doesn't do Dolby Vision or tone-mapping). I think in general that the majority of 4K UHDs coming out now look very good indeed. I wasn't too happy with Once Upon A Time In The West (and many Paramount 4K UHD titles are not good). If any forthcoming Italian release looks hugely different, then I'm pretty sure the good people over at The Digital Bits, who I trust, will review it comprehensively and convince me! They review quite a few foreign 4K and blu ray discs.
 

Robert Crawford

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Not sure there's any significant savings given the exchange rate and shipping costs. All I had to do was walk two blocks to pick my copy up in person. (And it's still great to be to walk into a store on a Tuesday and see a rack filled with new releases. Not many of us can still do that.)
Not everyone in Canada lives two blocks from that retailer which is why I offered up those other retailers as possible options for other people.
 

jayembee

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Note: regarding "superior encoding" for an identically graded master - I definitely think that this is more a term bandied about by people who sit and put everything through a computer and print out graphic readings of the data file, than having anything to do with what is actually visible on a large screen, in motion. I have purchased several European 4K UHDs, which people have touted as having "superior encoding" - Citizen Kane, Mulholland Drive, Videodrome, Carrie, Wings Of Desire, The Three Colors Trilogy, to name a few, and saw no arresting visual differences, compared with their Criterion counterparts, on a projected image in motion. There might be some very subtle differences in motion artifacts, or how black levels or grain is managed. But these are practically invisible in motion. And certainly not worth all the fuss generated. After all, the real upgrade lies in the rescanning and regrading of the original elements.

I got the European UHDs for Videodrome and Wings of Desire, but that was because they were released first, and well before Criterion announced their own editions. I had few doubts that Criterion would eventually release them on UHD, but, with Criterion, you never know how long you'd have to wait for them. For the others you list there, I got the Criterion releases because they were first (or, at least, I hadn't heard of the European releases before Criterion announced theirs). I have to confess that I've been tempted by Curzon's Three Colours, but only because it would look nice side by side with Curzon's The Double Life of Veronique 🤔 ).
 

Into The Archives

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Just got the 4K disc, and it looks good to me. :P
 

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Worth

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Not everyone in Canada lives two blocks from that retailer which is why I offered up those other retailers as possible options for other people.
Bay Street Video does also offer national and international shipping, though it appears that Once Upon… is temporarily sold out.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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I plan on doing a visual comparison next weekend after my FEL-capable player arrives. A BDInfo comparison of the data rates for the base layer and FEL suggests the FEL may be doing a lot of heavy lifting here. When the base layer bitrate drops, the FEL rate goes up and often hits 20+ mbps.
None of that FEL info is showing up in screenshots, nor will it be decoded in any projection set up.

Well, that sucks (for all us PJ users), if so...

_Man_
 

davidmatychuk

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Not everyone in Canada lives two blocks from that retailer which is why I offered up those other retailers as possible options for other people.
In Vancouver, it's Videomatica. They get me special orders, along with new releases. I bought the new 4K "Once Upon A Time In The West" there for $66 Canadian, but if there had been a Canadian release it would be much cheaper (and there would be French language translations on the packaging and the digital copy if included would work, but I digress). There doesn't seem to be any way to predict which movies will be expensive because they're import-only, but it's all part of living in Canada I suppose.
 

Robert Crawford

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In Vancouver, it's Videomatica. They get me special orders, along with new releases. I bought the new 4K "Once Upon A Time In The West" there for $66 Canadian, but if there had been a Canadian release it would be much cheaper (and there would be French language translations on the packaging and the digital copy if included would work, but I digress). There doesn't seem to be any way to predict which movies will be expensive because they're import-only, but it's all part of living in Canada I suppose.
I feel for you Canadian film buffs.
 

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