UHD Review A Few Words About A few words about...™ - Night Moves -- in 4k UHD (1 Viewer)

[sbjork]

The skewed color has been reported by multiple reviewers who watched the UHD Blu Ray including the DVD Beaver who uses screen caps to illustrate his comment after watching the UHD. You are correct about watching the UHD is different than looking at screen caps but the reason I rely on this forum and others is to get a sense of the audio visual presentation and given my limited budget is it worth a purchase or upgrade. Criterion releases are very expensive in Canada so if anyone is on a limited budget you will not be disappointed with the Warner Archive Blu Ray. It’s an excellent movie.

Saying that it has "skewed color" is assuming a baseline that hasn't been proven, namely, that the Blu-ray is the "correct" color. That's assuming a fact not in evidence. Reviewers who are making that statement are making an assumption.

And you're speaking to a reviewer who watched the UHD and compared it to the WAC Blu-ray and the Warner Bros. DVD. I noted that the colors were different than the Blu-ray, but also pointed out that they were closer to the DVD. And in lieu of having my own IB Tech print for comparison, I said that I was going to have to give Criterion the benefit of the doubt since they did. Anyone who makes an assertion that the UHD is "skewed" based solely on the look of the Blu-ray is standing on shaky ground.

By the way, while neither Penn nor Surtees are around anymore, if the dye-transfer print that Criterion used as reference does indeed match the grade on their UHD, then fans should be disappointed in the WAC Blu-ray, because it's flat-out incorrect.

 

[mskaye]

I thought it was interesting that it was released so close to Chinatown. The moral of both films suggests it may be best not to solve the mystery.

This is from Mark Harris' essay accompanying the film. Sums it up well and syncs with what you stated: "It’s a story that places Night Moves alongside films like Alan J. Pakula’s The Parallax View, Robert Altman’s The Long Goodbye, and Stuart Rosenberg’s The Drowning Pool in a category that has come to be known as Watergate-era noir. In the films of that midseventies minigenre, which are shot through with cynicism and hopelessness, a seemingly straightforward case soon engulfs the man who’s probing it in quicksand, plunging him into a world in which corruption, greed, and evil tentacle themselves in so many directions, both outward and upward, that the only possible outcome is overwhelming despair."

https://www.criterion.com/current/posts/8761-night-moves-losing-ground?utm_source=braze&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=current-newsletter&utm_content=april-6-2025

 

[bobclampett]

Saying that it has "skewed color" is assuming a baseline that hasn't been proven, namely, that the Blu-ray is the "correct" color. That's assuming a fact not in evidence. Reviewers who are making that statement are making an assumption.

And you're speaking to a reviewer who watched the UHD and compared it to the WAC Blu-ray and the Warner Bros. DVD. I noted that the colors were different than the Blu-ray, but also pointed out that they were closer to the DVD. And in lieu of having my own IB Tech print for comparison, I said that I was going to have to give Criterion the benefit of the doubt since they did. Anyone who makes an assertion that the UHD is "skewed" based solely on the look of the Blu-ray is standing on shaky ground.

By the way, while neither Penn nor Surtees are around anymore, if the dye-transfer print that Criterion used as reference does indeed match the grade on their UHD, then fans should be disappointed in the WAC Blu-ray, because it's flat-out incorrect.

Here’s what was reported over at Bluray.com on the extensive restoration work done by Warner Archive and MPI to creat the Blu Ray. That extensive work was also used to create new preservation elements. The work of MPI and Warner Archive has been universally praised. Can’t remember the last time RAH had anything negative to say about their work. I’ll take the expertise of Warner Archive and MPI over Criterion any day of the week……….
Night Moves traveled a long path to Blu-ray. The Warner Archive Collection began with its customary approach of commissioning a new 2K scan from an interpositive, which was performed by Warner's Motion Picture Imaging facility. However, as MPI began its job of color-correcting the results of the scan, unexpected problems emerged. Although the IP had been accurately color-timed, it was plagued by issues that could not be fully addressed by digital adjustment; these included flickering and graininess that was exceptional for an element only one generation away from the original camera negative. After further evaluation of the IP and extensive consultation between WAC and MPI, the decision was made to start over by retrieving the camera negative from the vault—a decision not undertaken lightly, given the care with which an OCN must be handled. A new scan was performed, and as per standard Warner policy when dealing with an OCN, this second scan was done at 4K.

Digital color-correction is a far lengthier and more labor-intensive proposition with an OCN than it is with an interpositive, because the latter already contains numerous adjustments achieved photochemically. In one of his Se7en commentaries, David Fincher observed that scanning from OCN amounts to "starting from scratch", because every shot has to be reevaluated and adjusted for densities, shadow, color values, etc. This is why 4K scans from negative still remain the exception, especially for catalog titles that are unlikely to sell in large numbers. A 4K scan costs more than a 2K, and the expense of the many additional hours of colorist's labor mounts up quickly.

The raw 4K scan of Night Moves has been meticulously color-corrected by one of MPI's premier colorists, followed by WAC's customary cleanup to remove dust, blemishes and age-related damage. The result is a 1080p, AVC-encoded Blu-ray that ranks among the best and most accurate releases of a Seventies catalog title currently available. Night Moves' image on Blu-ray is beautifully textured and film-like, with an abundance of fine detail and an almost tactile immediacy in the rendering of the story's contrasting environments. You can see the sweat and seawater (and, occasionally, blood) on Hackman's face and the sun reflecting off his brow. The full range of bad Seventies fashion is intricately displayed, with styles suited to each character (and almost all of them hideous); check out Kenneth Mars's patterned shirt in screenshot 10 and the dots on the scarf knotted around James Woods's neck in screenshot 14. The wear and grime of environments in both L.A. and the Florida Keys are vividly rendered, and the boat on which Harry makes several eventful voyages looks like the weather-beaten tub that it is. Night scenes feature deep blacks, and the film's grain pattern is finely resolved. Having gone to all this trouble to create a first-rate master, WAC has given Night Moves its usual superior compression, with an average bitrate of 34.99 Mbps.

It is worth noting that the finished transfer used for this Blu-ray of Night Moves has also been utilized to generate preservation elements, ensuring the film's future availability without the need to risk returning to the OCN, which will only grow more fragile with the passage of time.

 

[sbjork]

Here’s what was reported over at Bluray.com on the extensive restoration work done by Warner Archive and MPI to creat the Blu Ray. That extensive work was also used to create new preservation elements. The work of MPI and Warner Archive has been universally praised. Can’t remember the last time RAH had anything negative to say about their work. I’ll take the expertise of Warner Archive and MPI over Criterion any day of the week……….

I'm quite familiar with the press release from WAC regarding their 2017 Blu-ray release (Blu-ray.com just copy-pasted from it). I'm also quite familiar with what's missing in that press release: the name of the colorist, and what he/she used as a reference. Both Penn and Surtees were already gone at that point, so they weren't consulted. The only connection that we have to either of them is the IB Tech print that Surtees approved. I haven't seen it, so I can't personally vouch for the fact that Criterion's version matches it accurately. But considering that Criterion did specify the reference that they used, one that wouldn't have suffered from fading or unequal decomposition of the color layers, and that they also named the colorist who was involved, they've provided the data points to back up the grading choices that they made. WAC didn't.

Warner Archive does wonderful work, but they're not infallible. You're choosing to believe that the WAC release is accurate and the Criterion isn't based on blind faith alone, not data. The data available says otherwise. You're also trusting the word of a reviewer who is basing his opinion on personal preference, not data.

I can't personally vouch for the accuracy of Criterion's disc since I don't have that dye-transfer print in my personal possession. But Criterion did, so I have to take their word for the accuracy of their version since I don't have any data to the contrary other than the appearance of the WAC disc -- and there's no data at all to support the accuracy of that version. And like I said, Criterion's disc actually looks closer to the even older Warner Bros. DVD. The WAC disc is the odd man out in all of the digital home video versions that we have currently available.

You'll note that I'm not saying any of that dogmatically, but instead qualifying and explaining every step of the way. I'm just giving the weight of the evidence that we have available to us. But making a blanket statement that the WAC version must be correct simply because it's WAC is pure dogmatism.

 

[sbjork]

While I generally frown upon screenshots, I feel obligated to offer these (borrowed from Caps-a-holic). The top one is the DVD, and the bottom one is the Blu-ray. They don't have a comparison up yet for the Blu-ray to the UHD, but I think that it's pretty easy to see that the DVD has the same so-called "skewed" colors as the UHD:

Now, it's certainly possible the the Blu-ray is the only correct one and that everything else is wrong. The data just don't lead to that conclusion.

 

[mskaye]

While I generally frown upon screenshots, I feel obligated to offer these (borrowed from Caps-a-holic). The top one is the DVD, and the bottom one is the Blu-ray. They don't have a comparison up yet for the Blu-ray to the UHD, but I think that it's pretty easy to see that the DVD has the same so-called "skewed" colors as the UHD:

View attachment 250590

View attachment 250591

Now, it's certainly possible the the Blu-ray is the only correct one and that everything else is wrong. The data just doesn't lead to that conclusion.

I've been a fan of Bruce Surtees' cinematography for over 45 years - was a bit obsessed with Don Siegel and Clint Eastwood for a time - and while there is variance in his work, I would err on the side of darker and more contrasty if picking one that would seem to represent his visual take on the world. I guess we will never know for sure unless there is a public screening of that reference print in LA one of these days. I own the WB blu ray but looking forward to owning the Criterion very soon especially after seeing the screenshots.

 

[Robert Harris]

Here’s what was reported over at Bluray.com on the extensive restoration work done by Warner Archive and MPI to creat the Blu Ray. That extensive work was also used to create new preservation elements. The work of MPI and Warner Archive has been universally praised. Can’t remember the last time RAH had anything negative to say about their work. I’ll take the expertise of Warner Archive and MPI over Criterion any day of the week……….
Night Moves traveled a long path to Blu-ray. The Warner Archive Collection began with its customary approach of commissioning a new 2K scan from an interpositive, which was performed by Warner's Motion Picture Imaging facility. However, as MPI began its job of color-correcting the results of the scan, unexpected problems emerged. Although the IP had been accurately color-timed, it was plagued by issues that could not be fully addressed by digital adjustment; these included flickering and graininess that was exceptional for an element only one generation away from the original camera negative. After further evaluation of the IP and extensive consultation between WAC and MPI, the decision was made to start over by retrieving the camera negative from the vault—a decision not undertaken lightly, given the care with which an OCN must be handled. A new scan was performed, and as per standard Warner policy when dealing with an OCN, this second scan was done at 4K.

Digital color-correction is a far lengthier and more labor-intensive proposition with an OCN than it is with an interpositive, because the latter already contains numerous adjustments achieved photochemically. In one of his Se7en commentaries, David Fincher observed that scanning from OCN amounts to "starting from scratch", because every shot has to be reevaluated and adjusted for densities, shadow, color values, etc. This is why 4K scans from negative still remain the exception, especially for catalog titles that are unlikely to sell in large numbers. A 4K scan costs more than a 2K, and the expense of the many additional hours of colorist's labor mounts up quickly.

The raw 4K scan of Night Moves has been meticulously color-corrected by one of MPI's premier colorists, followed by WAC's customary cleanup to remove dust, blemishes and age-related damage. The result is a 1080p, AVC-encoded Blu-ray that ranks among the best and most accurate releases of a Seventies catalog title currently available. Night Moves' image on Blu-ray is beautifully textured and film-like, with an abundance of fine detail and an almost tactile immediacy in the rendering of the story's contrasting environments. You can see the sweat and seawater (and, occasionally, blood) on Hackman's face and the sun reflecting off his brow. The full range of bad Seventies fashion is intricately displayed, with styles suited to each character (and almost all of them hideous); check out Kenneth Mars's patterned shirt in screenshot 10 and the dots on the scarf knotted around James Woods's neck in screenshot 14. The wear and grime of environments in both L.A. and the Florida Keys are vividly rendered, and the boat on which Harry makes several eventful voyages looks like the weather-beaten tub that it is. Night scenes feature deep blacks, and the film's grain pattern is finely resolved. Having gone to all this trouble to create a first-rate master, WAC has given Night Moves its usual superior compression, with an average bitrate of 34.99 Mbps.

It is worth noting that the finished transfer used for this Blu-ray of Night Moves has also been utilized to generate preservation elements, ensuring the film's future availability without the need to risk returning to the OCN, which will only grow more fragile with the passage of time.

A couple of points —

Not certain why Blu-Ray is being discussed as the final product.

Color grading from an Eastman OCN is not as dense as portrayed.

A film is made up of multiple shots, generally exposed on 1,000 foot negative rolls. If one is shooting alternates of two characters for a sequence, those shots will (generally) be on the same roll(s).

Keep in mind that a film also generally uses the same negative emulsion batch for the entire project. Anything left over is sold as short ends. One of the few that I’ve noted as otherwise is Mad World, which for re-takes ended up using not only a different emulsion batch, but a totally different emulsion.

In setting color, a single shot serves as the basis, and then every other shot of that actor in that sequence is simply punched in with the same setting.

That simplifies things measurably.

 

[bobclampett]

A couple of points —

Not certain why Blu-Ray is being discussed as the final product.

Color grading from an Eastman OCN is not as dense as portrayed.

A film is made up of multiple shots, generally exposed on 1,000 foot negative rolls. If one is shooting alternates of two characters for a sequence, those shots will (generally) be on the same roll(s).

Keep in mind that a film also generally uses the same negative emulsion batch for the entire project. Anything left over is sold as short ends. One of the few that I’ve noted as otherwise is Mad World, which for re-takes ended up using not only a different emulsion batch, but a totally different emulsion.

In setting color, a single shot serves as the basis, and then every other shot of that actor in that sequence is simply punched in with the same setting.

That simplifies things measurably.

According to that article, Warner Bros. used their restoration work to creat preservation elements. I get what your saying about film stock and lab work and it’s challenges, and I understand Directors and Cinematographer's play with colors to create a mood, but for the life of me, if the Criterion take is correct, how does the skewed color advance the narrative. The human eye looses its ability to perceive color when illumination is reduced. The movie takes place in California and Florida. No lack of illumination there. Not everyone has an unlimited budget or access to free screeners, so the only point I was trying to communicate was the WA presentation is excellent and in no way will detract from the plot and performances,
all of which are excellent.

 

[Robert Harris]

According to that article, Warner Bros. used their restoration work to creat preservation elements. I get what your saying about film stock and lab work and it’s challenges, and I understand Directors and Cinematographer's play with colors to create a mood, but for the life of me, if the Criterion take is correct, how does the skewed color advance the narrative. The human eye looses its ability to perceive color when illumination is reduced. The movie takes place in California and Florida. No lack of illumination there. Not everyone has an unlimited budget or access to free screeners, so the only point I was trying to communicate was the WA presentation is excellent and in no way will detract from the plot and performances,
all of which are excellent.

The WA Blu-ray was released in 2017, and while I have no direct information, I’d bet that it was repurposed from an earlier transfer that made it appear natural and “proper.”

I have no problem with it.

Have you seen the Criterion? Don’t recall if that was mentioned in this thread/

 

[sbjork]

I'm not sure how we can keep losing the thread that this film was shot by Bruce Surtees. He was perfectly aware of what happens when illumination is reduced -- he built an entire career around the idea of reducing illumination. How anyone sees California and Florida is irrelevant. How Surtees saw it is all that matters. And once again, Night Moves is neo-noir, so it's perfectly reasonable to assume that he didn't want everything to look harsh and overlit. He never overlit anything, full stop.

 

[Robert Harris]

I'm not sure how we can keep losing the thread that this film was shot by Bruce Surtees. He was perfectly aware of what happens when illumination is reduced -- he built an entire career around the idea of reducing illumination. How anyone sees California and Florida is irrelevant. How Surtees saw it is all that matters. And once again, Night Moves is neo-noir, so it's perfectly reasonable to assume that he didn't want everything to look harsh and overlit. He never overlit anything, full stop.

But Florida is always sunny and bright!

Can you imagine how Mr. Willis might have shot it and designed it to be printed?

 

[sbjork]

But Florida is always sunny and bright!

Can you imagine how Mr. Willis might have shot it and designed it to be printed?

It's a real issue with home video fans. Everyone says that they want home video transfers to accurately represent the original look of film, but whenever cinematographers like Surtees, Willis, or Geoffrey Unsworth are involved, people question the distinctive looks that they created.