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Robert Harris

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Note #2 (1 at bottom)

I’ve now compared the Blu-ray variant with the 4k, and they’re quite different.

While they both seem derived from the same master, which appears to be an older image harvest from an IP, and not the OCN, the Blu-ray disc has a more natural grain structure.

The 4k UHD disc has highly reduced grain, and (at least in bright areas (skies et al), a very awkward digital grain pattern that seems to clump, and at times appears to have mold embedded in the film element.

Is the 4k more highly resolved than the Blu-ray? Possibly, but not by much, and it has very little relationship to film, where the Blu has a more natural appearance.

If I had to purchase one or the other, I’d go for the Blu-ray, and not the 4k.

All of that noted, I’d be interested in seeing examples of the 4k scans before someone at the studio mucked about with them.

One of the nice attributes of 4k, is that enables a transfer from film to digital, while still retaining the original look of film. That comes with the process. Anything else is more work and expense, to create a different final product.

I’ll again make note of the major difference between this release and Italian - both purportedly 4k scans of the OCN - and with totally different final image values, when they should appear quite similar.

Removing exposure and processing from the equation, film is film.

______________________


Michael Winner's 1974 "Death Wish" with Charles Bronson in the lead is one of the quintessential '70s revenge dramas, and it holds up nicely.

The new 4k release from Kino via Paramount carries all the proper 4k monikers including Dolby Vision, but I actually had to confirm that I was viewing 4k, as viewing it in 4k and in projection, there is not a single hint that it's 4k.

The master appears older - certainly not new, and seems to be harvested from an IP, which is a waste unless somehow the studio has lost the original negative. There are bits of dirt and detritus, both negative and positive seen in the scan.

Color and densities look fine, there's simply nothing here above 2k (or Blu-ray) quality.

For those who may be unaware, you'll find then 21 year-old Jeff Goldblum in his first appearance as Freak #1.


Image - 4 (Dolby Vision)

Audio – 5 (DTS-HD MA)

Pass / Fail – Pass

Plays nicely with projectors - Yes

Makes use of and works well in 4k - 2

Upgrade from Blu-ray - No

RAH

NOTE: This has been publicized as a new 4k scan of the camera negative.

Not to my eyes. I’m wondering if the wrong master was delivered.



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Worth

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So Paramount strikes again? It sounds like it looks like film, at least.
 

sbjork

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It will be ironic if Vinegar Syndrome's UHD of Death Wish 2 looks better than the original. Sure, it's several years more recent, but it's also rescued from the detritus of Cannon Films, while Paramount provided the master for Kino. But with Paramount these days, that's par for the course.

The master that they supplied to ViaVision for North Dallas Forty was. . . strange. I'm still not sure what I was seeing on that one. 4K "restoration" (supposedly), too. But it had unnatural looking grain, and smeared textures.

For all the flack that Paramount has justifiably received lately, they're really more of a mixed bag. Some great masters, some questionable ones. I've got a variety of UHDs sourced from IPs that look quite good, so I don't doubt that this Death Wish disc looks fine, even if not appearing as true 4K resolution.
 

Robert Crawford

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Oh dear. I was planning to buy this disc . . . .
I'm still purchasing it as it has to look better on my OLEDs than that almost ten-year-old Blu-ray which only has a trailer on it. This 4K release has new Bonus Material including an audio commentary. I'll just be more patient and wait on the next Kino sale for a lower purchasing price.
 

Robert Harris

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I’ve been giving the Death Wish situation some thought, and the answer is simple.

A New Format.

A 4k UHD release derived from a 2k master, not to in any way take advantage of actual 4k resolution, but rather simply for the HDR/DV “pop” that will be seen on OLED panels.

The question, since they do not actually carry true 4k resolution, is…

What to call them?

I’d go with “2k UHD”

How to market them?

Just try and explain this to the consumer.

How to price them?

A few dollars above Blu-ray.

The variant already exists, but has not been recognized as such.

I personally have no interest in these, as I’d be equally as happy with a Blu-ray derived from the same newer master, but those who purchase 4k should be on notice before they place an order, that they are not receiving true 4k, and merely the HDR pop.
 
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Robert Crawford

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I personally have no interest in these, as I’d be equally as happy with a Blu-ray derived from the same newer master, but those who purchase 4k should be on notice before they place an order, that they are not receiving true 4k, and merely the HDR pop.
I know that!
 

Robert Crawford

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And all readers here know that you know that…

But beyond your personal desires and buying practices to feed your OLED habit, what is the general public to do?
That's up to the general public to decide, as I think most people that regularly reads this forum understands they're not getting 4K information derived from 2K scans.
 

Robert Harris

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That's up to the general public to decide, as I think most people that regularly reads this forum understands they're not getting 4K information derived from 2K scans.
In your opinion, how many people, or what percentage of buyers who support 4k UHD are readers of HTF?

I would presume the number to be negligible.

And if that is correct, how does one educate the “general public?” Or do we only attempt to educate HTF readers, and allow the public to survive in their own misunderstanding of what 4k actually is?

What percentage of BD.com readers do you think understand this? They have more subscribers.

Possibly a poll is in order on both sites, to find out what percentage of 4k UHD buyers (who read one of the two main sites) understand what they’re buying, and also what percentage desire 4k simply for the pop that it gives their OLEDs, with actual resolution of no importance?
 

Robert Crawford

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In your opinion, how many people, or what percentage of buyers who support 4k UHD are readers of HTF?

I would presume the number to be negligible.

And if that is correct, how does one educate the “general public?” Or do we only attempt to educate HTF readers, and allow the public to survive in their own misunderstanding of what 4k actually is?

What percentage of BD.com readers do you think understand this? They have more subscribers.

Possibly a poll is in order on both sites, to find out what percentage of 4k UHD buyers (who read one of the two main sites) understand what they’re buying, and also what percentage desire 4k simply for the pop that it gives their OLEDs, with actual resolution of no importance?
I have a question for you. What is the percentage of people that are purchasing 4K displays understands that just about all of the material they're viewing on those displays are not in 4K? My guess that a majority of them don't realize that reality.
 

Robert Harris

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I have a question for you. What is the percentage of people that are purchasing 4K displays understands that just about all of the material they're viewing on those displays are not in 4K? My guess that a majority of them don't realize that reality.
For those who care, and are not simply purchasing a 4k at Costco because all of the panels are 4k -

And also have 4k players -

I’d think that most are aware that generally TV broadcasts are HD, and that they only see 4k when they run a 4k UHD disc.

But probably have no idea what resolution they’re actually seeing on their 4k panel, and presume that if they’re running a 4k disc, they’re see 4k.

Even when they’re not.
 

Robert Crawford

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For those who care, and are not simply purchasing a 4k at Costco because all of the panels are 4k -

And also have 4k players -

I’d think that most are aware that generally TV broadcasts are HD, and that they only see 4k when they run a 4k UHD disc.

But probably have no idea what resolution they’re actually seeing on their 4k panel, and presume that if they’re running a 4k disc, they’re see 4k.

Even when they’re not.
I wouldn’t make that assumption.
 

Robert Crawford

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Are you suggesting that they have zero to minimal knowledge?
Yes, the majority of people that don’t frequent home theater forums like HTF don’t quite understand the technology limitations of the software they’re watching on their displays. Particularly, those of us that are part of an older demographic.
 

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