What's new

A Few Words About A few words about... Oklahoma! (1 Viewer)

DeeF

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
1,689
Well, I have to switch back and forth between S-video (Cinemascope) and component (Todd-AO).

But it's pretty simultaneous...

I really want to figure out how these are different. I think there are some extra bars in the Dream Ballet (in the Cinemascope version).
 

DaViD Boulet

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 24, 1999
Messages
8,826
once this title gets reviewed at HTF (I'm assuming it will???) it would be great if you could post your comparisons in the review thread...content differences between the two as well as your own AV impressions...
 

DeeF

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
1,689
Here's an odd thought I've just had.

The Cinemascope version of Oklahoma! is on Disk 1! It's obviously the better presentation, and I'm wondering if Fox and R&H are trying to promote it for future audiences as the better of the two.

The Todd-AO is on Disk 2.
 

Paul_Scott

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
6,545
isn't disc 2 where they loaded all the special feature content as well?
i was worried that they would negatively impact the better transfer (thinking wrongly that the Todd AO would be the defacto better presentation), but maybe that's why the set is laid out the way it is?
 

Richard M S

Screenwriter
Joined
Mar 2, 2005
Messages
1,051
I am curious as to which version was filmed first. Years ago I read an article somewhere about how they filmed a scene with one set of cameras, and then everyone waited while they set-up the shot for the second set of cameras. The article then went on to say this was most evident in the dance scenes, where it seemed the dancers leaped to a slightly lower height - simply from just being more tired due to the second set of takes.
 

DeeF

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
1,689
The Todd-AO was filmed first, in every case. Gloria Grahame said that they often didn't get to the Cinemascope version until the afternoon, and they would have to change the set-ups because the light was so different.

And by the afternoon, Gloria said the actors were tired, and bit giddy, which accounts for the more "laughing" quality of the Cinemascope version.
 

DeeF

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
1,689
What an experience I've had, comparing all these Oklahoma versions, the two new ones, and the old DVD. Tiny differences in editing, pacing, lighting setups, as well as acting subtleties can often make a huge difference. Also, the better presentation on DVD (in this case, the Cinemascope version) makes for a more coherent experience -- one gets the film more.

There are some mistakes made in the commentary, notably, Shirley Jones says that the original show opened on her birthday (March 31) in 1942, making a big deal about it because she began playing in the chorus of South Pacific in 1952, ten years later.

She's wrong, the show opened in 1943.
 

Jefferson

Supporting Actor
Joined
Apr 23, 2002
Messages
979
Yes, you are right,
there are additional bars of music in the Farmer and the Cowman dance sequence in the TODDAO version...
The main title music is also slightly different.
During the finale, as the surrey is riding away, before they sing, "Oh What a Beautiful Mornin" again..there are additional bars of music there, too.

Otherwise, most of the prerecorded vocal portions are the same in both.

This is amazing.
When the TODD AO was made available to home viewers in the mid 90's, we all agreed it was miles above the Cinemascope version...in performance, in timing, in color, in sound (especially sound).
I tossed my vhs cinemascope version in the trash when the (i think)pretty TODDAO laserdisc was released.

So, now everyone says the Cinemascope one is far superior?
Wow..i cant wait to get this set and see the difference.
 

MatthewA

BANNED
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2000
Messages
9,727
Location
Salinas, CA
Real Name
Matthew
A weird thing about the CS version...

At the final shot, there seems to be a piece of cloud "falling down" for about half a second. I saw this on the remastered VHS from 1990 and from my mom's tape of the film off the Disney Channel in 1986.
 

Robert Harris

Archivist
Reviewer
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 8, 1999
Messages
18,312
Real Name
Robert Harris
It is long established that reproduction quality affects performance.

Among other problems, the inability to see an actor's eyes sharply makes a huge difference.

There is no sharp focus on the new Todd-AO disc, which defeats the entire purpose of what was one of the finest formats ever to hit the sheet.

RAH
 

Joe Caps

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2000
Messages
2,169
I put up two lasers side by side years ago to compare.
Some of the film actually seems to be shot side by side. In some parts you can see the scope seems to be a camera over on the side compared to the centered quality of the Todd AO.
In the theater, the scope version did NOT have Overture, Intermission and Exit Music. That was added on the scope laserdisc from the Todd AO tracks.
During the opening of the OUt of My dreams ballet, during the initial pas de deux danced by James Mitchell and Bambi Lynn, several sections seem to be much FASTER in the Todd version.
Longer, is the finale of the movie whenthechorus sings the final OhWhat a Beautiful day and the orchestra ends it with a couple of measures in the scope and quite a few measures in the Todd version
The end title - the clouds optically dropping down in the middle of the frame - that was done back in 55 when it swas found a fly got into the camera and you could see it. You can still see some of the fly until the clouds drop down to cover it.
Since this was the first (and only) Todd AO being shot in the U.S. at the time, there was a real shortage of 70mm film stock and if there were mistakes, they were left in.
the two biggest - during the Kansas City number, dancer gene Nelson shows the group how to do ragtime and he prances around and at one point jumps on top of a wooden crate. In the scope version it is done correctly, he jumps on the crate which brakes apart and he lifts his legs OUT of the crate one at a time and continues on with the dance. In the Todd version he lands onthe crate the wrong way and he almost falls backward but one of the chorus girls push him back into the dance and he continues.
Other mistake - at the end of the film on aunt Ellers Porch, everyone comes out of Aunt Ellers house to sing the song Oklahoma, during the intro on the porch Curly hits one of the porch posts and it moves and gives way in his hand and he has to push it back into place in the Todd version, not in the scope.
 

Mark B

Screenwriter
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Messages
1,070
Location
Saranac Lake, NY
Real Name
Mark
Thanks, Joe. For years I've wondered about that bit of "fuzz" and the sky moving.

Other differences: the bit with Laurey and Judd in the runaway carriage is longer in the TODD-AO, including a bit where they go through a fence. TODD-AO also uses more closeups, for instance the end of "The Surrey with the Fringe on Top." I believe this is due to the distortion CinemaScope caused center frame in close shots. In TODD-AO the train station is shown through the "bug eye" lens, showing the train approaching from the left and Aunt Eller from the right. In 'Scope the camera pans across. There are more, but I'll not bore the group. It's makes for fascinating side by side viewing.
 

Henry Gale

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jul 10, 1999
Messages
4,628
Real Name
Henry Gale


I'm not bored, I've been waiting for years to compare "these two films" and I thank all of you who have contributed to this discussion.
 

Dick

Senior HTF Member
Joined
May 22, 1999
Messages
9,913
Real Name
Rick
As I recall, the THX laser disc did not have any opening credits at all (or closing ones). What was with that?
 

TonyD

Who do we think I am?
Ambassador
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Dec 1, 1999
Messages
24,249
Location
Gulf Coast
Real Name
Tony D.

has it been announced as an hd or br release yet?

i just picked up this and stae fair at target for $20
 

Matt Hough

Reviewer
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Messages
26,152
Location
Charlotte, NC
Real Name
Matt Hough
I had the laserdisc of the Todd-AO OKLAHOMA! and thought it was spectacular, so when it was ported over to DVD in a non-anamorphic transfer, I passed on it.

Imagine my horror to look at the newest Todd-AO release on DVD and see this pale, almost out-of-focus transfer on display. I think it's EASILY the worst transfer of a classic musical EVER committed to DVD, and Fox should hang its head in shame for this abomination. When I want to watch the Todd-AO version, I'll go back to the laserdisc.

BTW, the CInemascope transfer is gorgeous, and I'm delighted to have it. At least my money wasn't totally wasted on this set.
 

Mike Frezon

Moderator
Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2001
Messages
60,695
Location
Rexford, NY
Even though I followed closely the discussion of the horrible Todd-AO transfer, I couldn't hold back when Target had the new Oklahoma and State Fair releases in thier $10 sale.

Yup. The Todd-AO transfer is, indeed, terrible...but what a treat to finally be able to see it. I remember being amazed a few years back when DeeF was explaining about the two different versions in another thread and I hadn't even been aware of a second version. Too cool! Let's hope they get it right some day.

The commentaries are rather dull. The two historians on the scope version are deadly dull but do share the occasional nugget. Was hoping for Shirley Jones to spice things up in the Todd-AO commentary, but I turned it off after the first half-hour or so when all she did was talk about herself and her career. There was almost NOTHING about the film itself. :thumbsdown: Maybe I'll go back sometime and try listening to the rest to see if there's anything worthwhile.
 

TonyD

Who do we think I am?
Ambassador
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Dec 1, 1999
Messages
24,249
Location
Gulf Coast
Real Name
Tony D.
anyone with a large screen and side by side pic ability try that yet for these 2 discs.

it' interesting to watch bith versions on the same screen play right beside the other.
my mits squeezes both in the screen but you can still get the idea.

todd is very bad compared to the CS version.
that one doesnt look so great to me either, but is much better then the todd.

the todd version flickers.
i guess thats the frame rate?
or maybe my player not reading the frame rate properly?
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Articles

Forum statistics

Threads
356,815
Messages
5,123,799
Members
144,184
Latest member
H-508
Recent bookmarks
0
Top