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A Few Words About A few words about...™ Unforgiven -- in 4k UHD Blu-ray

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by Robert Harris, May 13, 2017.

  1. 1 May 13, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
    Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    The new 4k UHD of Unforgiven is an interesting case study.

    Originally released via LaserDisc in 480i, and later in High definition via the original HD, and then Blu-ray, which as I recall, were both single layer. Good for the time in which they were created, and presumably (at least the latter) from a 1080i master.


    In 2011, for the film’s 20th anniversary, it was re-issued, possibly from the same master, and on a BD-50, with appropriate extra content, in digi-book form.

    Reality aside, one must presume that somewhere between the original production of duping and protection elements, and any work that may have been performed in 2010-11, the original negative was severely damaged.

    As promoted, either what was released in 2011 was a restored version of the film, or whomever was marketing the release didn’t like a perceived lack of sizzle, hence a brilliant new “restoration.”

    I’ve now had the opportunity to compare three variants of the film.

    The 2011 Blu-ray, the 2017 Blu-ray, and the 2017 4k UHD.

    My comments must come with a caveat, as I’ll not be set up with a proper 4k OLED panel for a couple of weeks, and hence will update these words.

    What I’m seeing in 4k projection of all three discs is as follows:

    The 2011, despite the possibility that it’s derived from 1080i, is a quality affair. Very few digital artifacts, and even fewer that would be noted by the average viewer, even in projection.

    In comparison to the 2017, the upgrade becomes
    very obvious, not only in stability, but in overall resolution, black levels, grain structure, etc.

    The new Blu-ray alone is worth the price of admission.

    Comparing the new 4k UHD/HDR with the new Blu-ray is another affair entirely.

    At least via projection, blacks take over the image, with a decided loss of shadow detail. The overall image becomes dark. Again, let me advise that this may change measurably via flat panel viewing, and different scores may become necessary for projection vs OLED.


    More interesting, is that the difference between the 4k image, as up-rezzed, and the 4k image as viewed from the 4k disc, are not much different, aside from HDR.

    There simply doesn’t appear to be true 4k information in the original negative, which causes me to question whether a 4k release was warranted.


    What we do know, is that every bit of information, regardless of actual resolution, has been harvested, and finalized in pure 4k.

    In my opinion much of this becomes moot, as the included Blu-ray, which is only available packaged with the 4k, is alone worth the price of admission.

    Final note. On the audio side, we go from an old Dolby Digital stream to DTS-HD MA 5.1, which especially on higher end equipment, is a huge upgrade.

    As an UPDATE:

    Run on a Sony OLED, the imagery pops, with superb, rich blacks, and a far superior image to projection except in bright scenes.

    Zero problems, with the exception of the four or so seconds, which are duly noted.

    Image - 5

    Audio - 5 (DTS-HD MA 5.1)

    Pass / Fail - Pass

    Upgrade - Yes

    Highly Recommended

    RAH
     
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  2. willyTass

    willyTass Supporting Actor

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    I hope you can get the Panasonic OLED as it seems to have the edge on the Sony
     
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  3. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    Sony. Same panel as the LG. Different electronics. Smaller form factor on easel.
     
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  4. 4 May 14, 2017
    Last edited: May 14, 2017
    Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    RAH,

    So you're saying the BD release from 2017 in this 4K/UHD release is superior to the 2011 BD Release? Also, that you prefer that 2017 BD up-rezzed to 4K to the 4K/UHD disc? You don't think the HDR helps the 4K/UHD disc over the 2017 BD?

    Anyhow, I think it will look great on my OLED65E6P panel.

    I'll buy this 4K/UHD release once it discounts down to a more reasonable price for me. It's still $32.59 at Amazon. It needs to be closer to the $20.00 mark before I buy it.
     
  5. Michel_Hafner

    Michel_Hafner Screenwriter

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    If it looks too dark in 4K the first suspect is incorrect or not existing tone mapping. That can even apply to an Oled with 700 nits when the disc is mastered for 4000 nits. On projectors with 1/10 or less of the nits required all bets are off without knowing exactly how the stuff is mapped. As long as the nit range from 0-50 or so which is coded as absolute values in HDR (like the rest) is not mapped to the same on the display, image darkness, blacks and shadow detail are affected. Displays that just push everything "somehow" down to the max nit level of the display look usually too dark.
     
  6. 6 May 14, 2017
    Last edited: May 14, 2017
    Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    Which is why the release needs to also be viewed on a panel. For the majority of 4k HDR discs, the Sony projector, in its latest firmware incarnation, does an adequate job of delivering an image.

    There are some films, however, that push the boundaries, and this may be one of them.

    The Sony OLED runs at 640 nits in Cinema mode, and up to 700 in others. The latest LG can do 800.

    QLED can go higher, but drops in overall quality.

    This may be one more situation in which Shakespeare was correct.

    "The fault... is not in the stars."

    There is a huge difference between theatrical presentation and home theater.

    While one can add a new Christie 4k to their home theater environment, that occurrence, especially if college tuition and mortgages must be paid, might possibly be divorce inducing.

    If post houses are creating discs that must be run at 4000 nits, the question might be, "why?"

    Especially when OLED yields the finest quality imagery currently available.

    Looking to the near future, when Panasonic delivers its new OLED line, being touted as the new nirvana for certain Hollywood post houses, the number will be 1000 nits at 65", but with no upgrade ability to run Dolby Vision.
     
  7. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    Yes, and yes. But I don't want to raise any red flags regarding the 4k HDR, as it may simply not play nicely with the current abilities of home theater projectors.

    I'm presuming that the disc will be superior on a high end panel. I've just not seen it.

    The inclusion, in this set of a Blu-ray, derived from the new 4k scan, being uprezzed by the Oppo, allows viewers the potential to have the best of both worlds.

    Which one desires with a film of this import.
     
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  8. Michel_Hafner

    Michel_Hafner Screenwriter

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    Yes, Sony is far better than my current JVC here which forced me to load a custom gamma created with a non JVC tool by some private volunteer. A title like "Arrival" remains a challenge but most look adequate now. If one has the Panasonic UHD player there is a new dynamic range slider when watching HDR natively which can help with too dark looking titles when used in moderation (1-3, not above 5 or 6). Recommended for checking out.
     
  9. gadgtfreek

    gadgtfreek Supporting Actor
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    I cant wait to watch this next weekend on my OLED!
     
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  10. Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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    Looks like a win/win. Love this film. Can't wait to watch it on my LG OLED too. :thumbs-up-smiley:
     
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  11. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    I believe it to be a historically accurate statement, to report that for the past decade, at no time have all parts of the industry been working in any sort of synchronization.
     
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  12. DavidMiller

    DavidMiller Screenwriter
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    I agree completely. As much as I love the 4K world I think everyone gets a different experience. Your projector vs a flat panel and even all the flat panels out there. I do love your quick reviews because they give me a starting point. I have a Calibrated (by Tyler Pruitt) Samsung 85" flat panel at 500nits (a little short of this) it does a good job but doesn't match up to the newer TVs out now.
     
  13. Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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    By the way, Anyone know how many nits the LG OLED 65e6 has?
     
  14. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    I believe it's 650-700 nits maximum.
     
  15. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    Officially 600.

    Standards spec minimum 540.
     
  16. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    That's right! I own the 65E6 so it should be interesting to see how this disc plays on that panel.
     
  17. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    Hopefully fine, unless 4000 nits is madatory.

    The E6 is a beautiful panel. That's the HTF standard issue, is it not?

    All staff gets one?
     
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  18. Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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    Another dumb question. Is that good?
     
  19. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    Actually, I think I'm the only HTF Moderator with one. I know Matt Hough HTF Reviewer has one too.
     
  20. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    Tino,

    Have you calibrated your panel? I had Robert Zohn calibrate mine before shipping.
     

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