A Few Words About A few words about...™ The Wild Bunch -- in BD & HD (1 Viewer)

[Dick]

Well it's taken me many, many years but I just saw the 1994 print this morning of the "Director's Cut" and found it to be a very interesting experience. Of course the "director's cut" is merely a marketing term and is instead the full length original 145 min version with the cut ten minutes restored to the needlessly shortened 135 min US original release version.

The Blu-ray is the most technically accurate release we have to date but it doesn't compare to the print that despite being very warts and all in approach blows it away. Skin tones finally seemed spot on which has been one of the hardest things for any video release to nail down.

However it is a problematic print due to the baked in damage and several instances of:
color timing being very different in certain sequences only to suddenly jump to normal looking footage, several scenes are very dark and obscure details, missing frames causing a black screen three times. I'm sure these issues and some of the sound mixing is what led scholars to have issues with the 1994 prints as indicated in some of Paul Seydor's Peckinpah books.

But that being said when these occurrences don't happen finally I saw a version without any of the problems I have had with each of the main video releases from the Laserdisc onwards. Beautiful color, imagery and detail and this was only the 35mm version and not the 70mm blowups made back then. From all my research over the years it seems WB did this to follow the Blade Runner Director's Cut success and reconstituted the European full length version under the director's cut moniker. Then after getting the release finally appealed thorough the MPAA who had slapped a NC-17 on it, Warner focused on the Laser and home video release in marketing and making a further cleaned up video master.

Unfortunately the sound still suffers as it doesn't seem quite right in levels. Presumably they used the six track master from the 70mm roadshow releases but most US audiences saw the general release in mono only. I will say this SR print sounded better than the home 5.1 releases as it was much more unified in terms of levels. But it did continually feel monoish in quiet scenes and not as good as most 70mm tracks from this era that have made it through mostly untouched to video. I do think the LD 2.0 pcm matrix is a good representation of this-however the print was apparently carrying 5.1 sr-d that just wouldn't read right at the theater.

I'm sure if it exists they're sitting on the rumored 4K master until the purported "hope to God it never happens but it probably will" remake to then release as a tie-in.

The current Blu-ray is a bit of a mess and extremely outdated plus it is based around the old HD-DVD era limitations. It should have been redone a decade ago but still betters the SE DVD. Then again there are a few reasons why I even like the old LD master and first flipper DVD despite the magenta push here and there. I'm still not happy with the Laserdisc, flipper DVD, SE DVD or Blu-ray version.

I think the difference in masters has led to a lot of the back and forth discussion in this thread and in other places. Each has it's own flaws that has become more visible over time with improvements in technology. For example: I remember being surprised at how good the Laserdisc was and that it didn't suffer the early DVD problems of the first DVD release, but after upgrading my gear found the LD to be riddled with tons of aliasing.
The SE DVD fixed a lot of issues from the first DVD but introduced new issues of its own. The Blu-rya then did the same but despite its issues is the best overall so far. I think my biggest gripe with that disc outside of DNR and such is color and particularly in the skin tones.
I always wanted to wait to share my findings over the years until I could finally see a print of some type. I've wanted to see one of these since first renting the full version from the video store as a kid and being absolutely obliterated by this towering work. It sill has its power as the audience today filed out in absolute stunned silence.

I'd love to one day find the elusive CAV box set version and the earlier Japanese LD of the full European cut with the mono. I've heard samples of the mono from the old analog transfers and it sounds pretty good for what it is.

Chances of Warner including the original mono, optional intermission card and a better presentation of the 70mm mix?
Held until hell freezes over or someone says different unfortunately it seems.

Well, in defense of Warner Bros. and the Archives, Hell has frozen over time and time again with their catalog releases. You never know...

 

[Robin9]

Please remind me how the colors are wrong again?

I haven't watched the disc for a long time but, going from memory, the images are too brown. I'll have another look one of these days.

 

[OliverK]

I haven't watched the disc for a long time but, going from memory, the images are too brown. I'll have another look one of these days.

That was it, not as bad though as Rio Bravo. In any case Warner could do much better with such an important movie.

 

[Paul Willson-Morris]

Given the choice of a remastered Wild Bunch or a blu ray of the Pat Garrett Turner cut with the sound and picture fixed. I'd have to take Pat as I've been waiting for it for 12 years already! In that time I've enjoyed my Wild Bunch blu many times on the projector despite its flaws it sure beat the spots off my original 1997 dvd flipper disc. The random choice of point to flip disc will be forever burned into my memory of the film, not a very natural break point!
Some new extras for Pat wouldn't go amiss. The dvd ones are so amateurishly shot I have no doubt nepotism was at play in who got the gig to produce those!

 

[OliverK]

Given the choice of a remastered Wild Bunch or a blu ray of the Pat Garrett Turner cut with the sound and picture fixed. I'd have to take Pat as I've been waiting for it for 12 years already! [...}

THAT would be a really hard decision for me. I am glad that I don't have to make it and I do not envy people at the studios who have a back catalog of thousands of movies from which they can only release a few each year!

 

[Robert Crawford]

I'm not a fan of Pat Garrett like some of you. I think it's a mediocre film compared to the greatness of The Wild Bunch. As to The Wild Bunch itself, I agree the video presentation could be better, but I'm not as down on it as some of you are and I feel the same way about Rio Bravo. With that said, I wouldn't mind new transfers for The Wild Bunch, Rio Bravo or The Searchers with all three on 4K/UHD disc.

 

[Alan Tully]

I agree. I find Rio Bravo & The Searchers just about unwatchable, whereas it's just the dated transfer on The Wild Bunch that I'd like improved, I can still enjoy it, very much. I do think that The Wild Bunch is far better than Pat Garrett, but I do love that western as well (I'm a huge fan of Westerns & James Coburn). I suppose two cuts complicates things a bit (three if you count the original release version).

 

[PMF]

I'm not playing the choosing game because, in reality, it's not been put forth to us.
So, with that said, I'll take The Searchers, Rio Bravo, Pat Garret & Billy the Kid and The Wild Bunch;
restored, color corrected, re-mastered, intermissions intact and up to everyone's specs, as discussed.

 

[PMF]

Well, I for one - and I don't think I'm alone - would not buy a 4K/UHD of this film unless I was certain that the colors were right. What on earth would be the point of a 4K disc with the same wrong colors as the Blu-ray disc?

No doubts, Robin9, you are not alone. If everything were to remain repeatedly wrong within its color palate, then not a single one of us would touch it with a ten-foot pole, either. On the other hand, I trust that with these dozen passing years that neither Warner's nor WAC wouldn't even be bothered with such an expensive exercise, were they not of the mind to get things up to their current standard of excellence; to which we all have grown to admire and respect.

 

[Danny_N]

... my original 1997 dvd flipper disc ...

One of the first dvd's I bought (a little over 20 years ago I see in my Amazon history). Snapper case, flipper, non-anamorphic NTSC. Talk about mediocre. And I still enjoyed it. We've become the spoiled bunch with all the technological developments in HT.

 

[Robert Crawford]

One of the first dvd's I bought (a little over 20 years ago I see in my Amazon history). Snapper case, flipper, non-anamorphic NTSC. Talk about mediocre. And I still enjoyed it. We've become the spoiled bunch with all the technological developments in HT.

Some of us more than others.

 

[OliverK]

One of the first dvd's I bought (a little over 20 years ago I see in my Amazon history). Snapper case, flipper, non-anamorphic NTSC. Talk about mediocre. And I still enjoyed it. We've become the spoiled bunch with all the technological developments in HT.

Talk about a trip down memory lane. My first two DVD's ca. March 1999 were The Wild Bunch flipper in the snapper case and The Good The Bad and The Ugly. They wiped the floor with my previous S-VHS recordings on my brand new 450 lumen SVGA projector.

We have come a long way since then to where we can now create an experience that in many aspects of the picture and sound quality surpasses a top notch presentation of a brand new print at a movie premiere except of course for the size of the screen.

 

[Robin9]

No doubts, Robin9, you are not alone. If everything were to remain repeatedly wrong within its color palate, then not a single one of us would touch it with a ten-foot pole, either. On the other hand, I trust that with these dozen passing years that neither Warner's nor WAC wouldn't even be bothered with such an expensive exercise, were they not of the mind to get things up to their current standard of excellence; to which we all have grown to admire and respect.

One of my greatest regrets is that there seems to be no cross fertilisation between Warner Home Entertainment and Warner Archives. Before Warner Archive took over the Blu-ray program, Warner's standards were not consistently high, with several films released on Blu-ray disc in severely sub-standard quality - Rio Bravo being the prime example. It is only since Warner Archive were given the monopoly that standards have reached almost legendary quality. Sadly, Warner Archive either can not or will not re-do titles released by Warner Home Entertainment. The second iteration of Rio Bravo had the same lousy, fifth-rate transfer as the first!

 

[Robin9]

That was it, not as bad though as Rio Bravo. In any case Warner could do much better with such an important movie.

Nothing is as bad as the Blu-ray transfer of Rio Bravo! This infuriates me because Rio Bravo is one of my favorite films, one of the ten I would take to that mythical desert island. I really wish I had kept the DVD!

 

[OliverK]

Nothing is as bad as the Blu-ray transfer of Rio Bravo! This infuriates me because Rio Bravo is one of my favorite films, one of the ten I would take to that mythical desert island. I really wish I had kept the DVD!

I had another look and indeed it looks really quite brownish and dark, especially in interior scenes and compared to the DVD. Other than that it at least looks like film while for example El Dorado is lacking film like texture due to some kind of filtering algorithm that Paramount must have employed for preparing the Blu-ray together with a bit too much sharpening.

Out of these two I prefer El Bravo as I can add a bit of blue/green to it while slightly flattening the gamma curve and reducing saturation a little bit to make it look rather close to the DVD. It is impossible however to put the filtered detail and textures back into El Dorado which gives it a certain plasticky look and for me invalidates the advantage of a potentially better master.

Compared to these two The Wild Bunch actually looks at least OK - less brown and more detailed than Rio Bravo and no obvious digital manipulation that annoys me so much with El Dorado. Still there is considerable room for improvement so I hope Warner will make this the first Peckinpah to be revisited in the Blu-ray era - it is about time.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Man, I'm going to have to pull out my discs and watch these great films again as I can't agree with some of the criticism posted recently as it pertains to the extent of the criticism.

 

[OliverK]

One of my greatest regrets is that there seems to be no cross fertilisation between Warner Home Entertainment and Warner Archives. Before Warner Archive took over the Blu-ray program, Warner's standards were not consistently high, with several films released on Blu-ray disc in severely sub-standard quality - Rio Bravo being the prime example. It is only since Warner Archive were given the monopoly that standards have reached almost legendary quality. Sadly, Warner Archive either can not or will not re-do titles released by Warner Home Entertainment. The second iteration of Rio Bravo had the same lousy, fifth-rate transfer as the first!

Re-releasing titles that got a bad or mediocre release from Warner Home Entertainment simply does not seem to be something that Warner Archive is supposed to do. On the other hand I am quite sure that if Rio Bravo or The Wild Bunch are redone that work will be done by the same staff that is working on the Archive releases so the same standards should (hopefully) apply.

 

[OliverK]

Man, I'm going to have to pull out my discs and watch these great films again as I can't agree with some of the criticism posted recently as it pertains to the extent of the criticism.

If you don't adjust the picture and don't sit too close you should be fine with El Dorado and The Wild Bunch, maybe less so with Rio Bravo I'd say as it looks quite dark and brown.

At my seating distance of 2 screen widths or less from the screen the digital tempering in El Dorado is unfortunately rather obvious to me but your mileage may vary. If you want to check that for yourself you can go closer and notice that for the other two you can still watch them at about 1.5 screen widths away from the screen and they still look decent if a bit soft but El Dorado just shows that processed look that may not have been as obvious at a bigger viewing distance.

 

[Robert Crawford]

If you don't adjust the picture and don't sit too close you should be fine with El Dorado and The Wild Bunch, maybe less so with Rio Bravo I'd say as it looks quite dark and brown.

At my seating distance of 2 screen widths or less from the screen the digital tempering in El Dorado is unfortunately rather obvious to me but your mileage may vary. If you want to check that for yourself you can go closer and notice that for the other two you can still watch them at about 1.5 screen widths away from the screen and they still look decent if a bit soft but El Dorado just shows that processed look that may not have been as obvious at a bigger viewing distance.

I'm not going to view El Dorado as I watched it not too long ago and I don't agree with you at all about that disc.

 

[Matt Hough]

I haven't watched Rio Bravo since I got my OLED, so that may be my viewing disc for today. I didn't much care for the way it looked on my plasma, but maybe OLED will bring something else to the table. I'll see.